Episode 136: Learning the Practice of Joy
In today’s episode, I am talking with Danielle Brooker, life coach, and podcast host at The Daisy Patch, about the differences between joy, happiness, and positive thinking.
“You should be grateful,” they say.
“It isn’t that bad. I’m just whining,” you tell yourself.
“I shouldn’t be so negative. I have so much to be positive about in my life.”
Man, oh, man! We really beat ourselves up for not being able to stick with positive thoughts all the time. The minute we start to feel negativity—like fear, anger, or doubt—we’re trained to step in with positivity.
Yet anger, sadness, and doubt have things to teach us. If we skip right over these “negative emotions,” we never get to experience life on a deeper level.
Today, I’m thrilled to talk with Danielle Brooker who helps busy, always-on women ditch stress and reclaim their joy. She owns The Daisy Patch, where she offers private coaching and group masterminds as well as digital courses. She also hosts the podcast, Let It Shine, and is a Forbes Magazine author.
In this episode, Danielle and I totally geek out about the differences between joy, happiness, and positive thinking. There is so much good stuff here and I can’t wait for you to hear it.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
What the difference is between joy and happiness
How joy and positive thinking work together yet how they are completely different
How you can be uncertain and feel really bad and at the same time experience joy
Why she refers to her online home as The Daisy Patch
Resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Nancy: Before we get into this week's episode, I want to take a few minutes to chat about the recent events with the murder of George Floyd, by the police officer, Derek Chauvin and the resulting peaceful protests and riots. Yesterday as my husband and I were watching the news and seeing the variety of images from police and protestors, walking together in peace to looters running out of broken store windows.
I said, how is this going to stop? I have watched the videos and listened to the news and heard the guttural pain of the black voices. You have protested and screamed at the top of your lungs to be heard and still black men, black women and black children are senselessly murdered. I want to acknowledge your pain and thank you for finding the energy to continue to speak march and demand change. As a white woman, it is easy to fall into overwhelm to watch what is happening on TV and social media.
And think the problem is too big. What can I do? How can I make a difference? And then my Monger steps in to shame and ridicule me for not knowing the right way among many other things. And I become paralyzed. To be honest, I've lived in that paralysis for too long. I have stayed silent for fear of doing it wrong.
If you are a white person and have also heard the pain of the black voices and are tired of living in paralysis, I want to offer you three actionable steps. Number one, read, listen, educate yourself. I recommend you find podcasts, books or other resources written by black people. Three podcasts. I would recommend.
Number one, Make Light number two, The Opt-In Podcast. And number three, Speaking Of Racism, we will link to those in the show notes. The second actionable step. Notice your BFF. Our BFF is always going to protect us from feeling shame, whether from our mongers or from the outside world. I have seen my BFF a lot this week.
I see a post on social media that makes me feel shame. And my BFF comes out to say who does she think she is? Or I have pain too. When I hear my BFF talking, I ask myself, wow, what is that about? Is there something I need to own here seeing privilege? Hard. It makes us feel uncomfortable and we need to get uncomfortable.
We need to see how we are part of a system that perpetuates pain and claims innocent black lives. You know how I always talk about the power of, AND here you go. You are a kind loving person. And you have biases against black color. You have them because they're everywhere in our culture, in our families, in our media, we swallow them every day and we have to start owning them, getting uncomfortable and making corrections. The third actionable step. Talk about it. Find spaces to have honest conversations about these topics. I reached out to a friend of mine this week and we have agreed to create a shame free space where we can challenge each other and say things we feel stupid saying most importantly, create those spaces with other white people do not seek safe spaces or require emotional labor from black people, especially right now.
We need ongoing systemic change. This is not a let's look at the issue of race and privilege hard this week. And then next week, go back to life. As normal situation let's commit to on going systemic change, I will do it wrong. You will do it wrong. We are human. We do things wrong. Remember there is no right way, but here is my new motto.
When you make a mistake, listen, learn. Make corrections.
Danielle: Like you don't stay in a state of happiness all the time. I think that's probably somewhat impossible. Whereas for me, joy is more of a source. It's more like tapping into something deep and inner. That makes me feel like me.
Nancy: You should be grateful
It isn't that bad.
I'm just whining.
I shouldn't be so negative.
I have so much to be positive about it.
Man. Oh man, we really did beat ourselves up for not being able to stick with positive thoughts all the time. The minute we start to feel negativity, fear, anger, doubt sadness. We're trained to step in with positivity.
Positive thinking is something that has been hardwired into us. It's a cultural norm. We don't have the patience for negativity because we've been trained. That negativity is heavy. It's less efficient positivity is light, airy and fun. So it's easier to be around. The negativity, feeling bad. Ignore it. Just look at all the things you should be feeling positive about.
Your listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane.
Positivity and the relentless hunt for it is something that keeps us stuck. It prevents us from getting into the depth of life. It prevents us from making changes, anger, sadness, doubt. They have things to teach us places. We might need to make a change or experience something on a deeper level. If we skip the quote negative emotions, we never get to experience life on a deeper level.
All this month, I'm talking about things that keep you stuck. I'll be interviewing Mara Glatzer about self-care and how those of us with high functioning anxiety struggle with engaging in self-care. And our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in over functioning. Jen Louden will be here to share her new book called Why Bother?, which is what to do when you feel stuck in your life.
And I'll be talking about the high functioning anxiety mantra. I got this, which keeps us stuck in overdrive. Today, I'm thrilled to bring on an expert on joy to talk about positive thinking. Danielle Brooker is a coach who works with busy, always on women to ditch their stress and reclaim their joy. This might be my favorite part of her bio.
I'm also the first to tell you that feeling bad is just as good for you as feeling good. It's just that we've lost touch with feeling good. We spend too much time focused on our stress, our busy-ness and our. Joy gets limited air time in our lives. So when we come to want it, we don't know how to experience it.
Danielle has been an author for Forbes magazine, which is where we met. She interviewed me for an article. She got started in coaching after a decade in government policy, economics and health charity roles. She's from South Africa and has lived in Australia, Japan, and now London, Danielle, and I totally geek out about the difference between joy, happiness, and positive thinking.
There's so much good stuff here. I can't wait for you to hear. Danielle. And I talk about the difference between joy and happiness, how joy and positive thinking work together and how they are completely different, how I can be uncertain and feeling really bad. And at the same time experienced joy and why she refers to her online home as the Daisy patch.
Okay. I'm so excited today to have Danielle Brooker here with me, we are going to be talking about joy, all things, joy. She's a joy coach. And also positive thinking. This month, we're talking about things that keep us stuck. And so I'm interested to hear. Danielle has to say about that topic.
Welcome, Danielle
Danielle: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here and to be having this conversation with you.
Nancy: I know you talk, obviously being a joy coach, you talk a lot about joy. So what is joy to you and what is the difference between joy and happiness?
Danielle: Oh, good question. So we're just diving straight in
Nancy: jumping in girlfriend.
Danielle: It's actually a really good question. And I'll probably start with that distinction between joy and happiness, because I feel like it's almost like the first thing you go to, like you hear joy and you think isn't it just being happy and to me it's really distinctly different. I really think of joy for me personally, is.
More of this deep source. It's more of this deep, almost fuel source that I tap into. It's when I'm feeling personally my most grounded and calm and like crystal clear in my thinking and feeling, and, it's almost like. Source of immense gratitude, immense love. It's not necessarily for me, like skipping down the street with glee, all the time.
Although, sometimes sure. I have been known to skip down the street, but that's certainly not what joy is to me all the time. Whereas when I think about happiness, I think like happiness is more like. It's more like a state of experience like it. And in some ways it can almost be driven by external things.
I am happy in a conversation with my friends. I am, happy about reading a book or like happy being on holiday. It's a short-lived experience almost like you don't stay in a state of habit. All the time. I think that's probably somewhat impossible. Whereas for me, joy is more of a source.
It's more like tapping into something deep and inner that makes me feel like me.
Nancy: Oh, that makes you feel like you. I like that. Okay. So like in my work, it would be like the biggest fan type spots. So that could be one that, okay. That's cool. I hadn't thought about it like that. Because I think of joy as like skipping down the street and you're saying that can be, yeah, but even if you're in the midst of grief or like right now in the midst of, during COVID-19 in the midst of high anxiety and uncertainty, I can still tap into my joy. Yes. And what would that look like?
Danielle: This is really interesting, because I know you had commented on a blog post. I wrote recently.
Which is touching on this point is like, how can I be uncertain and feeling really bad and at the same time experience joy, like how can I, and for me, first of all, I think about, yes joy is on the spectrum of emotions that we can feel. And, in a time of uncertainty, life, at the time of recording now, there's a lot of uncertainty going on in the world.
But there's also uncertainty just every day, you think about like small changes that we make in our life or, bigger changes. Should I shouldn't I quit my job, the uncertainty that that, those sorts of questions throw up for us when there's a lot of uncertainty.
What we tend to do is we want to. Get back in control. Like we want to clean tight. There's oh, like I don't want to feel stressed. I don't want to feel confused about this. I don't want to feel uncomfortable. And when we clean onto that I talk about this in the context of like, why we busy ourselves as well.
But when we clean and this is come me, but I'm tensing my body right now, but it's like this tightness and it's almost like this numbing that we do. Yeah. What I say is like, when we're doing that, we're not even experienced, like we're doing it because we don't experience the pain, but we're also when we're not experiencing the pain, the discomfort, the stress, the busy-ness.
We're also not experiencing the other side of the emotional spectrum, which is things like calmness state of groundedness pleasure, joy love. And when I, so when I talk about if you are, how can I in this moment of uncertainty also experienced joy for me, I guess it's remembering that all the feelings are OK
If that's the simplest possible way that I can put it, it's acknowledging that anything that's coming up is natural and I choose to hold tight and worry about it, or try and fix it or try and control it. Then what I'm actually doing is holding myself back from all of the other emotions.
And the emotions give us our experience of life.
I'm like, don't get me wrong. Like somewhat some emotions for me. I just really not always that welcomed. You're like, please go away. I don't want you right now, but the more that I can remind myself, like in that moment, Hey, this is an emotion like this is not this is not a forever thing. This is an experience, this is to help me experience whatever's going on right now, quicker.
I can move through it as well. Like the more uncomfortable ones. I'm trying to think of like a practical example. All right. So this is what the blog post was about the other day. This is just a silly, small, practical example, but it helps. Yeah. Bring it to life is I was literally sitting on the couch.
We're on stay at home, stay safe policies at the moment. Sorry. There's a lot of at home. I'm in a small place with my Partner working from home. And I'm sitting on the couch and it's Spring and there's this beautiful sunshine streaming through. I'm sitting doing a little bit of work and reading and I'm a sunshine person.
I'm just laughing it up, going, oh, Amazing. And then I start to smell something really gross. It was like the sewage smell coming through and I'm like, oh, yuck. So in that moment, my body tensed up, I was like, I was getting frustrated. I almost wanted to be like, what's going on? Where's that coming from?
Can we get rid of that? Can we fix that? Please close the door. What's going on? What was my instant reaction? And. It just took me a moment to be like notice that tension. And then I was also in that tension. Because I, play around with this in my life. I'm like hang on a second.
The suns really nice too. Do I need to hold tight to this grossness? Or could I just be, could I just breathe through it? Like literally breathe through the yucky smell. And when I did, I realized that yes, it was gross. Then it got a little bit less gross than it got a little bit less gross. And before I knew it, I was back into that kind of Oh, the suns really nice. And isn't this beautiful on my couch is really comfy. Does that does that kind of make sense? It's holding at the same time.
Nancy: Yeah, I think that's an awesome example. Because you also went on, I think to be like, how dare they lay the mulch on, today when I had my window open in a Sunday like then we can get in.
Yeah, we can get into righteous indignation and blah, blah, blah. And it just spins us so much. Sorry. Because I had an interesting this morning, I was I told you before we got on the today has been like a tough day, like started rough. And so I go into what's going on? How can I fix this? How can I get into a better mood?
Where's my monger talking and what can I do to get out of this? And I was walking the dog and I was like, you should be enjoying this, look around it's sunny and blah, blah, blah. And then finally some little voice inside of you, right? Sharing this to be like, I think this is what you're saying.
Some little voice inside of me said, what if you're in a bad mood? Yes. And I was like, yeah. And then everything softened, like as soon as I said what if you're just in a bad mood? It was. And then the next phrase in my came into my head was its so hard to be in a bad mood. Yeah. And that was just such a foreign thought to me to give myself kindness around that instead of trying to push myself out of it all the time.
Danielle: Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I really feel particularly as high achievers, as high functioning, what we want to do when we feel discomfort or stress, or there's a problem at work, or we don't have the answer to something. Yes. I think that's almost like our learned strategy in that moment is oh my God, I'm grumpy.
Oh my God. I'm not supposed to be grumpy. I teach everybody how to feel joy.
quick, get out of it. So I like, and I love your experience there of like when that other voice is hang on a sec, maybe this is just a grumpy mood. Like you're entitled to feel grumpy. What happens even in the acknowledging. Of the feeling. There's a soft thing. And I know it because you have this three-step process on ask, ask.
Yeah.
Nancy: Knowledge is the feelings is the first step. Yeah.
Danielle: Which is so powerful. And sometimes this stuff can sound sorry. I dunno, like esoteric, but like literally genuinely that is my experience sitting on the couch going well, hang on a sec. What if I did. Don't get grumpy about the awful or what if I just acknowledged that, Ooh, this is a bit gross, like what could happen next?
Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I think that it's, we're constantly trying to push ourselves out of it and instead of accepting that it's there and how do I move forward with that? Because I think that is, to go back. You said something that I think is really powerful is the idea that all things.
All things are uncertain. You mean like it's really uncertain now and that's in our face of how uncertain it is and granted, I, it's but when you think about it on a bigger picture, we never know, we don't know what's going to happen in September ever. Yeah. We definitely don't know now, but we certainly, we make plans as if we know, but we don't know.
And I think that's an interesting kind of wrapping your head around that. There's some freedom there.
Danielle: Oh yeah. That's so true. It's so weird. Isn't it? Because if you can just, if I have this expression, like I think we're all control freaks at our core. And I think part of that is going okay. Cool. Acknowledging that I'm constantly seeking this balance between control and certainty in my life. But also if I took away all of the uncertainty, you'd be so bored. Yes. If there was no variety, it'd be like, as much as you're craving that. So it's this weird dynamic that plays out between them both.
And I think it's not so much, it's not so much about not getting control. It's about being really aware or about how you're going about it. Is what you were saying there with that kind of freedom piece or the, how you're going about it. If you're trying to be like, Nope, stop that, push that away.
I don't want to feel grumpy anymore. Let's go and fix it. It's a really short lived feeling of control because in that split second of, no, we don't need that right now. You feel like, yes, I'm digging when I've got this, I've got, and then five seconds later, it's oh my God, I'm grumpy again, right?
Nancy: Yes. Yeah, but that's the fascinating part is that it feels like when I said to myself, What, if you're just having a bad mood? There was a part of me that was like, oh no, we can't accept this because then we've lost control completely. Then you're just to the whims of your mood.
Yeah. Which is not true.
Danielle: Yeah. And it's interesting. Because I imagine like when you start with that, which is what happened when I was sitting on the sunny couch, when I sat with it for long enough, actually. I did get back to my control and I got it back in a much more, I say like sustainable or resourceful way.
Like I could keep running that strategy and it would work really well. But I think one of the things that has helped me so much with this is knowing that physically in our body emotions only lasts for 90 seconds. And I remember where I first learned that, but when I launched, I was like 90 seconds.
That's not long. I can handle 90 seconds. I think that's just a really cool thing to know so that when you are in that pain and discomfort, and you're trying out this new strategy, and maybe you do get the little voice going, hang on, maybe it's okay to be grumpy. Like maybe you get to that level of awareness.
Maybe the next step is going okay. What if I could give myself permission to feel grumpy, knowing very well. As long as you're bringing that awareness to it, like it, that feeling that discomfort, that grumpiness that you don't want could only last 90 seconds. Could you do it for 90?
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like we're constantly when we're like, oh, like the. We're either demonizing the people who are spreading the mulch and making the poopy smell, or were demonizing ourselves for being in a crappy mood. Instead of that's what I felt like this morning and you on the couch, like I saddled up next to myself and was like, what if we support ourselves through this instead of pushing, berating ourselves for having this feeling and.
And, sometimes it does feel, like I could do the righteous indignation, like anyone's business, and sometimes that feels like you're getting control because it's their fault. But in reality, it's not. Yeah. You've just compiled everything by blaming them and slamming the door shut and now the sun has gone.
You’re mad at them too what end?
Danielle: And now I'm trying to pump out work from this really cranky mood and, and I think, so the thing with control as well, which you've just touched on is part of what I'm saying, like about switching it to a sustainable resourceful strategy. Not even part of it, all of it has to do with coming back to you because I think we can try and seek control and others. It's their fault. That's where the indignance comes from. Like they need to fix this. They need to stop with the mulch, but if we're going to try and control what other people are doing in our lives, we're just going to be grumpy all the time.
It just doesn't work. Just think of the last time that you tried to judge, is my boss in a good mood or not today should I shouldn't I ask them like, or like I've done this with my partner before going, oh, he seems in a bad mood. Maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just cheer him up.
I'm like just let it go. Let him but when it comes from you and you choose how to feel about that person's mood, or you choose how to feel about it. The mulch and the smells and being grumpy, like instead of that kind of fix it mentality, actually you do get back, like you get to drive, so you're back in control, right?
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because that mind reading, that's the thing. That's another boat, but that is where, I know that's something. A lot of high functioning people pride themselves on is being able to read, predict what's what people need. And sometimes we nail that but sometimes we don't, and it's just a lot of extra work.
Danielle: Yeah. A lot of extra work, a lot of extra time and energy that could be spent on actually feeling good.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So let's go back and tell me about how you got into this. How did you become a joy coach? What was your path?
Danielle: Okay. My path is so zig zaggy and I don't want to give you the four hour version. So a couple of like milestones or like realizations for me were things like. One, I've always been like a positive sunny person. Like I've always just seen the good in people, in things and experiences. At some point along the way, I started to hide that a little bit or soften it or not let it shine too much.
Because I was worried about standing out or what would people think if they're in a bad mood and I'm in a good mood, what's going on, by the way, none of this was conscious. This is like from like connecting the dots, looking backwards. So there was that element of it. I was also I'm someone who always did the right thing.
Studied really hard, wanted to get the good job, did get an amazing job. Had this wonderful career, got promoted very quickly. I actually love my job. And from the outside, looking in everything was great. Good job, amazing mentors, wonderful friends and family, good relationship, I could go on and on, but I was coming home, exhausted, stressed out and crying every night.
Like no idea why. I thought I had to fix it by enrolling in a master's degree. Part-time and that's great. This is something I've always been passionate about. Maybe I need to fix it by, I dunno, like hanging out with my friends, more, taking more breaks, going to yoga classes. There were all the things that I was trying to do to cut a long story short.
There was this absolute burnout from all of that. And part of the burnout
Nancy: Burnout from the fixing or a burnout from the crisis or a combination.
Danielle: That's a good question. I guess a combination like by burnout I literally took time off from work, like to a point where I had to stop, like my body, like my heart, my emotions, everything was like, you just have to stop.
Okay. Which was still looking back, one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life tell a busy, always on highly ambitious person to stop and you're taking away their lifeline.
Nancy: What were some the signs that you needed to do, that?
Danielle: That I needed to stop?
Nancy: Yes,
Danielle: Coming home crying every night.
I'm like, what's wrong. I had a lot of digestive issues that I thought were like, related to what I was eating. So I was trying to fix what I was eating. I was getting migraines. I kept going back to the doctor saying, give me something stronger, nothing would work. And I was saying to her I don't understand nothing's working.
And she was like, maybe just breast. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. And, but there were a couple of other things like. One and to be honest, like it was all around the same time, mushed into one. Another thing was my boss was retiring and he asked me, Hey, why don't you apply for my job?
And I laughed it off. I was like, oh, you're so funny. That would never be me, blah, blah, blah. And I thought that kind of planted a seed of why isn't that the natural next progression? Why you're not even considering it. I also had this somewhat profound kind of experience where I randomly was at work very busy, stressed on a weekend, finishing up a master's degree and got distracted and ended up booking myself on a overseas volunteering program in Kenya.
Oh, my something I had always dreamt of doing, but for some reason I got distracted from the, what I should do. And in that moment was like, oh, let me Google that thing that makes me come alive. Let me Google. It feels really good. And that was another seed. So there were the seeds of going into, hang on, maybe you need to do things differently.
Maybe you need to be asking different questions. Maybe this is not for you. And after that Kenya experience, which was. Yes, time away from work. But I had approached it from a very career oriented that I'm going to do this thing, and it's going to look good on my CV. And so I got back from that and I, they, as part of the program, send you away on this personal empowerment development weekend.
And I love give me any course training workshops. Self-help thing. That was me. I was always like, yes, please give me more learning. But on this weekend I got to actually experience coaching firsthand and these beautiful, incredible coaches were leading the weekend. I got to have a conversation with them, like six of them one-on-one for half an hour.
And I, once again, thought, no, something's not working at work. I'm really stressed. Maybe I need a career change. So that was what the theme of every conversation was. What do I do to progress? What do I do to get to them? Or what do I do to get better? Because you know, I'm not filled up yet. And in one of the conversations, I know this is a really long story.
Nancy: No, you're, it's great. I'm. Keep going,
Danielle: but what, it was really profound for me. So one of the conversations I opened my mouth and I just started balling. She was a coach and a psychologist. And I think something in me was like, she must have the answers or like this. I can trust her or It just opened me up where I lost the whole career conversation.
And to be honest, you probably only asked me one or two questions, but it changed the direction because one of the questions she just asked is what is it you most need right now? And my answer was, I need two weeks off work to do nothing. That was all I needed. And even in saying the answer, the relief in my body, like I just, I was petrified.
I was scared. I was nervous and I was relieved. So all of that was just this combination of art adults. What you have to do, you actually have to completely take time off. Like you cannot come up with new answers. You cannot know what your next step is. You cannot course correct digestion and migraines and all of the stuff.
If you don't stop first, if you don't give yourself space first. So that was my starting point and two weeks very quickly turned into six weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.
Nancy: And in that time, in the six weeks, what did you do? Just literally relaxed.
Danielle: Yeah, like I was so fortunate. And I'm forever grateful this particular GP.
And I had seen various GPS over the years about all the digestion and headaches and blah, blah, blah. This particular one was quite new to me. In fact, I don't think I'd seen her at all before. I think I purposely booked like a brand new GP when I got back from that weekend with where the combination was go take two weeks off.
And once again, I open my mouth and I said, ah it was tears and she's what did I write you off for two weeks? Stress leave. I think that's what you need. Oh, wow. That's awesome. But she actually said to me, she's what you need to do is go and do nothing. And she's yes, nothing means sit on the couch.
Yes. Nothing means watch all the movies read all the books. And she said, nothing also means. Go for a walk every day also means get out of the house. It was such an important distinction because the high achiever that I am, I'm on stress leave. I'm not allowed to leave my house. I have to not stress. I have to relax.
I was like, oh my God, I have to do the right thing. Yeah. If someone sold me out, but she, in some weird way, she gave me permission to actually just do whatever the hell I wanted.
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And was that hard?
Danielle: Oh yes. Like it was so hard because I'm, I was a highly sociable person used to thriving in a work environment, doing all the things suddenly I was at home, everyone else was at work.
Talk to during the day when everyone's busy at work, there's nothing to do. I had this vision of reading all the books and then I'd sit there and be like, I don't know what book to read. I'm uncomfortable. I don't want to sit still, I got bored of the TV, it was really uncomfortable to begin with
Nancy: I asked that because I know so many of my clients will say, oh, I just that would be their dream.
For their doctor to give them, but then when it happens, it's super stressful. It's not the dream that you think it's going to be, which is why I was pushing it.
Danielle: In my head I was like, oh my God. Yes. She gave it to me—2 weeks off! I celebrate it. I'm like, oh my God. I had to call work and tell them and oh my God, like when you talk about like your Monger coming up like that, I basically have to call my boss and tell him I'm a terrible person that does not have anything together.
I cannot do my job. And my doctor has told me to stay at home and do nothing like and I was petrified. And I don't know how long this will be for maybe two weeks, maybe longer. And it was out of the blue when I eventually did return to work, my boss, like they were like just amazing. Like they took so much care of me, had amazing support in place.
One of the things my boss did say to me was. Maybe next time, could you just keep us updated because yeah. It went from nothing to like extreme and I can totally see that now as well.
Nancy: Which I think is how it works because we're so unaware of our own process and we're trying to fix it.
Danielle: Yeah. So these people want to help us that was a big revelation for me is they didn't think I was a horrible person. They didn't, they still respected me. They still gave me work to do it was actually, they wanted to help. It's just that they had no idea where I was at.
Nancy: Yeah.
Interesting. Yeah.
Danielle: I spent six weeks, like slowly, surely getting used to it. And I did create a routine for myself. I did read, I did watch some TV, but I also went for a walk every single day. Would stay connected, core family or friends and things like that. But one of the most powerful things I did and still to this day I do is I started to take myself out for a coffee at a coffee shop, every single morning by myself.
And I love coffee. I'm like, I love going to Australia. Australia's got this beautiful, like cafe vibe, which is, where I was living at the time I am Australian. You'd probably pick that up from my accent. I'm living in London. I don't know. I haven't shared that with listeners yet, but It was terrifying because I'd never really done it a line unless I was like traveling in an exotic location.
And I had to learn how to be alone, I had to learn how to sit with the discomfort whilst trying to enjoy it and telling myself I must relax. I'm supposed to be relaxing. That's what I did. And it became a ritual and it's been it's a non-negotiable in my self-care well-being.
Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome.
So you do that every day?
Danielle: Pretty much. Yeah. Sometimes. And I say sometimes I invite my partner to come with me. There is a version of it that happens pretty much every day, which to me, like sometimes it's 20 minutes, sometimes it's an hour, which is basically one of the core ingredients for me is spaciousness. There's no preconceived ideas of what that time is for. So sometimes, but it's never in front of a computer.
It's always me and my notebooks. I take about a gazillion notebooks with me to the cafe because I'm never sure what mood I'll be in. And it's just to be with myself. My thoughts sometimes I sit and stare. Sometimes I chat to the person sitting next to me. Sometimes I journal sometimes I like get ideas for blogs and, be creative for work.
But the idea is that it's me, myself and I
Nancy: that's awesome. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Because a lot of people don't have that relationship with themselves.
Danielle: And I didn't, I'd never stopped for long enough. I didn't know that I didn't. I thought I was, this confident, independent person and I was, but I had never been alone for long enough to really know myself. And I think that's what all the busy-ness had masked is anytime a question of like that might've popped up way back in the back of my heart or mind like, oh, is this job right for you? Should you still be doing this? It would get covered by the next thing, like the, the dinner date I had that night or the project deadline, or so there wasn't ever the spaciousness to sit with it.
My coffee date with myself started to create that space for me to actually, even just allow the questions to bubble the different questions give you different answers. And that really, I know your original question was essentially like, how did I end up being a joy coach?
That was where it started to bubble up. Like it was like how what are the bits of my life that feel really good? What are the bits that bring me joy and they wouldn't have ever bubbled up if I'd never given myself.
Nancy: Ah, I gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So then how did joy become, because you always had, so then, like you said, I always had this part of me that was positive and happy that you had been stifling or joyful, I guess I should say rather than happy.
So you really tapped into that part or …
Danielle: like I was still that person. I just more and more sorry that when I went down this path of questioning and following what made me feel good and even starting my business journey into coaching and training and all of that, the common thread. Anytime I ask myself what will make you feel good?
What will bring you more joy? Led me closer to coming alive again let me closer to feeling like that spark was always there, but it was like I was flaming it and suddenly I was like more and more I don't know, like I just felt so excited to be doing what I was doing. And even when I was in my full-time job whilst growing my business and during my training, I could say part time, but it was two full times.
People would say, aren't you busy on your stress? How do you do it all? And I'm like, no, because this thing that I'm growing on the side is fueling me because it's coming from a place of joy. That was part of it. And then the other part of it, there was this really pivotal kind of exercise I'd done as part of like a business program, and it was essentially to reach out to friends, family colleagues, and ask them what they believe your super powers are. Ask them what it is. So powerful, like just, yeah, just the most simple, yeah. Incredible question to ask
Nancy: and a hard question to ask I'm sure.
Danielle: Yeah. Like it feels a little bit awkward oh, can you please tell me what you like about me,
Nancy: but I can totally see that.
Yeah. I could see the power though, because so often. They see us so different, like in, can see minus all the crap in our heads.
Danielle: it's like my family who have obviously known me forever, I asked friends from like different walks and stages of my life. And I asked colleagues as well, like professional people and pretty much every single person wrote back and said some version of your positivity, your sunniness, your thoughtfulness.
And I was blown away. What I had to face in that moment was hang on a second. The very thing that you are a little bit holding back on a little bit, too shy to give all of it, because you're worried what people will think. The very thing that everyone keeps telling you, they love most about you.
What gives you the right to hold that back? Like these people are basically saying, that's what we love about you. And you've been to. I don't know, worried about what they will think, what they think has given me more.
Nancy: Right, yes.
Danielle: So that was a big catalyst for me in welcoming it a little bit more as well.
So it was these two sides of, Hey, the question I'm asking is all about joy and feeling good and my positivity and seeing the joy and the a different perspective and a different take on things is actually a superpower, right?
Nancy: Yeah. Because that's the thing. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your welcome, your story and diving into it a little deeper.
I think sometimes do. It's just helpful to hear the whole, what was it like to be to go into overwhelm, but the thing that and I'm just making this question up as I go. So bear with me is it's so nuanced. The part that I think we miss in the personal development world is the nuance of, and that's why, I'm thinking and talking at the same time, which is not my super power. So as you're talking, I'm like, oh, like I don't have that positivity bent.
Like I don't have that. So I have a glass half full, empty, a little bit bent and a little cynicism and that I can really, get stuck in and, but the it's my whole life. I have tried to overcome that by being positive and switching my mindset and changing. But in our conversation, it's coming, it's the realization of what if that bent is no better than yours positivity bent. Yeah. It's just a different bent. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?
Danielle: There's so much power in that. Isn't that even Hey, hang on. What if I don't resist this thing? That's probably just part of me, like, why allow it? What if I give it permission? And first of all, I'd say absolutely to anyone listening, please start ask that question to anyone in your life. What are my superpowers? What do you love about me? Because I think seeing it reflected back could give you so much truth that you're resisting right now. And it's what I think I love about what you saying, Nancy, like what was coming up for me there is instead of thinking, oh my God, I need to fix the negativity and only be positive. It goes back to what we were talking about at the start of the episode, which is. Actually all of the emotions are welcomed. They're all there to give you a gift. They're all there to maybe teach you something or show you a new perspective.
So instead of resisting it, like maybe what comes up about it? And I say on my website, I say I'm a positive thinking enthusiast. That doesn't mean, I believe that you should only be positive all of the time and only tell yourself the really cool things and keep telling yourself, I, everything is, amazing all the time which is probably a little bit of a myth around positive thinking.
Nancy: Yeah That's what I'm getting at. Yes.
Danielle: And I think for anyone who's not tapped into it a lot. It can almost put you off because you're like, but life isn't really great for me right now. I don't want to just tell myself life is good. Life is good. Life is good, but actually that's not what I'm saying.
And I know that's not what you teach either. That is not what positive thinking is about when you can have a positive mindset, but you also have to do the emotional. You just turn the tap on in saying life is cup is full. You the empty cup picture, the full cup. Actually, you have to sit with both, which goes to what we're saying at the start.
Like you have to sit with both, you have to welcome it all in, in order for you to take on that fresh perspective in order for you to think and feel differently, you have to sit with it. And it takes me to a lot about what I teach around joy as well. And I talk about joy being a muscle and you have to practice feeling good in our life.
And a bit about positive thinking that I come to is what we tend to do is we give a lot of it's what you focus on is what you get. So if you're only focusing on the empty. Then you've got a problem. Yeah. But if you're acknowledging that sometimes it's full, sometimes it's empty, like giving both sides a little bit of attention.
Then you're welcoming a deeper wider range of experiences into your life. Why I focus so much on joy is because I feel like we almost have this kind of push away mentality. No, no things are not good or no things are really stressful. I need to fix the stress instead of hang on a second.
What does it even feel like, for me to feel relieved for me to feel calm for me to feel joy? So if you can practice that, if you can build a muscle around it, so that on your crappy days on your whether it's a high anxiety day or the sewage smell coming through the back all day, because your muscle strength is that because you even know what feeling good feels, right?
It's like you can access that state with more. With more ease.
Nancy: Yeah, I, yeah, because that's what happened. What, what happened this morning? When I was doing the walk-in before I had the aha about let's just allow this. I was like, look at the sky, be grateful, doing all that forced positivity. And, but then after I had the moment of this is hard, what if it's just hard to feel this way? And we're just going to let this go. Then when I was like, wow, look at the blue sky. It's so pretty. Like my perspective did shift. And so the what I think the takeaway is that we lump emotions and mindset, all in behavioral and one big thing. And that we think we can manipulate our emotions by switching our mindset or our behavior, instead of allowing the emotion and acknowledging the emotion. And then that opens us up to a deeper perspective, which is almost exactly what you just said, (laughter).
Danielle: because I was thinking it's almost like in that moment you were thinking. I must think the sky is beautiful today. Like you were trying to think your way into the feeling, whereas actually have to feel like, so, maybe I'm just going to sit in the grumpiness.
Maybe that's okay. Gave you a sense of relief so that when you do then look at the sky, you can say, yes, the sky is beautiful, but you can also feel it.
Nancy: Yes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's different. And because to your point about practicing joy, because I have been practicing that, perspective, then it does tap in easily.
Yeah. Then I was able to look up and see it easier. But the, but it's not about practicing, that's why I get so caught up in just think positive or just say what you're grateful for, because if you have an acknowledged, what's really going on, that's just a bandaid on top of everything.
Danielle: Yes, I so agree. And I love that you brought up gratitude actually, because if you just say I'm grateful. I'm grateful. Yeah, it's nice. And you can maybe remember more things you're grateful for, but to actually practice gratitude to me is when I say why, when I say, because what is it about those that makes me grateful?
Because you cannot answer that question without feeling. Yes, right? Yeah. I'm grateful. It's a sunny day today, but that's just like a high-achiever. Yep. I'm grateful. It's sunny. I'm grateful. I'm Nancy right now. But when I say so grateful, it's sunny because I feel more alive when the sun is shining. I love that feeling of warmth on my skin.
It makes me feel more energized. I couldn't help, but feeling that right now.
Nancy: Yeah. That, because I was just, I was actually doing my continuing education for my license during COVID, which was like, yay me using my time productively in my high functioning. But one of the guys talked about gratitude and I always say name five things you were grateful for that happened that day that are unique. That's usually my thing, but he said, pick one thing you're grateful for at the end of the day and live it with all of your senses. Oh, what you did, you could feel the sun and the, That, because you know that because then you're immersed in it and it has such a different power than just, I'm happy for my sheets.
I'm glad I have a bed. I'm glad that which is, but he said that it has to be something that's unique to that day, which I thought was just, I love that.
Danielle: What I love about it is it really supports you to go into the immersion because there's five different senses you've got to touch on.
And what it also makes you do is slow down. And take a poll. You cannot rush these things. You cannot rush gratitude. You cannot rush feelings.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. That was a good little wrap up there, right there. So tell us, so tell people where they can find you, what you got happen in, how they can work with you, et cetera, et cetera.
Danielle: Ooh. Okay. So I think the best place to come and get a flavor for what I'm all about is over on my website, which is the Daisy patch.co.uk. And I have a ton of content there specifically around blog posts. Very much like what I'm focused on is working with highly ambitious, stressed out women. They tend to be in their thirties and at this like stuck crossroads and.
I really take them from like questioning. Should I shouldn't I quit my job all the way through to living a joyful life, regardless of what life, regardless of what job. So a lot of my blog content is supporting you to feel more human, to bring in joy, but also answer some of those tough questions and my favorite, like kind of social place to hang.
Instagram. So at the Daisy patch, coaching over an Instagram, come and say hi I really love hearing from people in my DMs and the comments. Like I love conversation as you've probably gathered know.
I do have like various offers and from time to time in terms of group programs and like digital courses and things like that. But the best place to be updated is to come and grab my emails. Like just sign up to them. Actually, if you go to the Daisy patch.co.uk/ feel-good, I've got a call list of 99 ways to feel really good.
Which is just like a fun way to say, like when you're stuck in a right, sometimes it's nice to just throw a fresh perspective at you to just pick up something. Maybe I'll try one of these things and it'll just put me on that kind of bridge to joy. So that's probably a really cool place to some people actually.
Nancy: Cool. Because I think it is sometimes, like changing your state in those, can really flip things. I think that's positive. Where did the daisy patch come from?
Danielle: So it's got lots of meaning to me personally, and then symbolically as well. So I just love daisies, the fresh and fun and yellow is my favorite color.
And I grew up with like huge, big Daisy bushes in my grand's backyard, so that it has a lot of familiarity. And then Daisy is symbolically very much. Joy and happiness and like new life and beginnings and sunniness and things like that. The patch is about this kind of metaphor.
A two-fold metaphor around seeing personal growth in your life and taking care of yourself and your own wellbeing. Your garden and really supporting that patch of growth in your life. Like it's always going to take the nourishing and the care, and sometimes you're planting seeds. Sometimes you're pulling out weeds, you can change what flowers you have there.
But it's also to say that we've all got our own patches and it's part of this kind of grand vision I have with the Daisy patch to grow it into all these patches globally, where we can all support and nourish and have that community. So it's got like this multi-filled aspects.
Nancy: Oh,that's awesome.
I'm glad I asked. I was so curious
Danielle: It has been so long since I have talked about it and it brings me so much joy to talk about it.
Nancy: So that was really fun. Okay. Yeah. This was awesome. Thank you so much for being willing to, come on and just talk about this stuff. In a loose way, it was really, I had a lot of aha for me, so that's awesome.
Hopefully all the listeners did too.
Danielle: Thank you so much for having me.
Nancy: Honestly, I hadn't thought about joy in this way. This conversation was an eye opener for me and has encouraged me to find more joy in my everyday life. Since this conversation, I've noticed how I suck all the joy out of things by turning them into duty.
I just talked about this in last week's episode. Number 135, finding joy is a meaningful goal. It brings more authenticity and loyalty into our lives, which is exactly what we need. If you want to hear more about my take on positive thinking. Listen to episode 102 Radical Acceptance Versus Positive Thinking.