Episode 123: Helping Women Design A Life They Love While Avoiding Burnout
In this episode, I chat with Rebelle's Shannon Siriano Greenwood who went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number.
We have all heard this story:
A woman has hit rock bottom. She is burnt out and is experiencing her dark night of the soul. Cornered by life, she feels like she has nowhere to turn.
And then, miraculously, she has some major ah-ha moment–lightning strikes and everything is fixed. Birds sing, everyone breaks out into song, and the struggle is gone.
I used to be addicted to these transformational stories.
These stories gave me hope that permanent change was possible. That one day I would be healed. I would be perfect.
The truth is, these stories of sudden transformative change keep us trapped and miserable. They feed us the lie that if we are still it is because something is wrong with us. They tell us that we haven’t suffered enough or that we haven’t been good enough to be transformed.
My guest today, Shannon Siriano Greenwood, went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number.
Shannon is the founder of Rebelle, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries, and Rebelle Con, a boutique conference about wellness, money, community, and creativity. Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned going through her own dark night of the soul experience.
Shannon is committed to change and to mental health as an on-going daily practice. As you will hear, some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
Why Shannon’s friends and family did not say anything even though they thought she was pushing too hard
What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults
How to manage your energy as an introvert when you are trying to build new relationships
How to set boundaries when you have not only a fear of missing out but a fear of hurting people
And what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways
Resources Mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Shannon: And yeah, it took so much to slow me down, which is why I recognize just how deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and I am hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter. But I think coming from such an extreme case, it makes me that much more empathetic to how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode.
Nancy: We've all heard the stories a woman goes through burnout, woman hits rock bottom woman goes through a dark night of the soul, has some major ahas. And she says, I am healed. Everything is fixed. Birds sing. Everyone breaks out into song and the struggle has gone. I used to be addicted to these transformational stories.
They gave me hope that permanent change was possible. And that one day I would be healed. Perfect. I now know that this hope was false. In reality, these stories keep us trapped and miserable because they feed the lie that if we're still struggling, it's because something is wrong with us. We haven't suffered enough, or we haven't been good enough to be transformed.
My guest today Shannon Siriano Greenwood did go through burnout, but her story was far from simple and wrapped in a bow. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.
Shannon Siriano. Greenwood is the founder of rebel, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries to share and learn from one another and founder of rebel con a boutique conference that brings speakers from across the country on such topics as wellness, money, community, and creativity.
Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned. She needed the most after her dark night of the soul experience. Shannon does an amazing job of sharing what her story taught her about the changes she had to make in her life and how her commitment to her mental health is an ongoing daily practice.
As you will hear some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. Shannon and I talk about her story of burnout, not just that transformational story, but the nitty gritty details. Why her friends and family did not say anything, even though they thought she was pushing too hard.
What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults being an introvert and how to manage your energy when you're trying to build new relationships. Saying no and setting boundaries when you've not only a fear of missing out, but a fear of hurting people and what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways.
Shannon. I'm so excited to have you here and to get your insights into letting go of the striveaholic in all of us or working on letting go of the striveaholic.
Shannon: Thank you for the clarification.
Nancy: (Laughing) That's why this is going to be a good one for people.
So I just want to hear you talk about how you're helping women navigate, designing a life that they love while avoiding the cultural pitfalls, telling us to hustle more and ride the edge of burnout. Would you say that's accurate?
Shannon: I would say that's the goal.
Absolutely. Whether I'm successful or not is not really any of my business. Exactly. But absolutely. The whole reason for my business. And the work that I do was my own experience with burnout and the fact that while I was burning out multiple times in my life no one, really saw anything wrong
Nancy: oh, isn't that telling?
So I want to hear that story and not from the pretty looking back. Here's the bow. Oh, I learned all these things, but from the nitty-gritty. What was it like being in it? How did you recognize it? How did you not recognize it?
Shannon: You don’t just want my hero journey. (Laughing)
Nancy: No, I do not. (laughing)
Shannon: I guess I'll give you the real story.
I burned out multiple times in my life and I think the most recent one was the most grand of all of those were announced. And sadly for me to even be aware of what it was, it had to be super grand. I have always, worked very hard. That's a value that my parents would probably say is one of the things they're most proud of me for how hard I work and how I'm willing to do what it takes to get the thing done.
These are all, Good qualities if in control, but not when, out of control, which is, how it actually works in real life. Let me paint the picture for what my life looked like. I worked a full-time job that I absolutely loved as the director of marketing for this really fun restaurant nightclub entertainment venue, but then I had the entrepreneurial itch.
So I started a business on the side, which was a boutique cycling studio so spinning. So this is before boutique fitness was really a huge thing. So it was definitely a risk at the time. Put my own money into this business, but started the studio. It was going really great. And then three months into me working full-time and running this business on the side, I got pregnant with my first baby.
Nancy: Oh wow.
Shannon: And I was teaching four fitness classes a week.
Nancy: Oh my gosh.
Shannon: Managing all the things. And I was used to piling it all on. So I just thought when I have this baby, I'm just going to strap him on and keep doing all these things. And so even what's funny to me is other mothers, knowing what it's like to actually have a human being like come from your body and then take care of it and keep it alive. No one questioned me. They all looked at me and saw me as this totally capable person that can handle more stress than the average person. And no one gave me any because for pause.
And so had this baby strapped them on, tried to keep doing what I was doing and obviously it came to a screeching halt. When I was suffering from postpartum depression brought on by all of the things by doing way too much and overextending and not taking care of myself and just having, the hormones and actual chemical things that go on in your body after you have it.
So I started having suicidal thoughts and I would walk around my neighborhood and pray that a car would hit me and think about in detail what the angle, it would have to hit me, but not hit the stroller. And just going through this mind, I was like, all right. If I see a car, like how close do I need to be?
Just also I was, really like thinking through it a lot. And even that wasn't a flag for me. Okay. So I just thought, all right, I just need to reorganize my life. So I quit the job. I was like, I can't do both. I'm just going to do the business and the baby and teach and that's too much.
It's just too much. I still didn't feel better.
Nancy: So wait, let me pause. You recognized, so you recognized it was too much.
Shannon: I recognize it was too much, but not a problem. This is I just need a new system so I can figure this out.
Nancy Totally. Okay.
Shannon: So this is how high functioning I am. And so then I'm like, you know what, still not happy.
I think it's this business. I'm not getting along with my partner. I think if I get rid of her, then I'll be okay. And, our partnership dissolved and ended up I ended up leaving. She kept the business. So quit the job. Sold the business decided that I'm keeping this baby because I did grow him and I'm an energy, so I'm gonna keep him, (Nancy Laughing) but still just total mess and would just have bouts of crying for hours and hours.
And again though, no one around me saying Shannon, these are signs that something really bad is happening. And so it wasn't until I was at the pediatrician with my first baby, he had a little cold, nothing bad. I am at the pediatrician sitting in the lobby, hysterically crying, just openly weeping, convulsing and crying.
And I had this light bulb I've never seen anyone else crying like this in public ever.
Maybe something is going on. (both laughing)
Maybe I should take this recommendation of a friend and find a therapist or a doctor. And yeah. It took so much to slow me down. Which is why I recognize just how like deep, deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter, but I think coming from such an extreme case it makes me that much more empathetic.
Really how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that's my not beautiful story.
Nancy: I love it. So do you think you would have heard them if the people would have said anything?
Shannon: No I think I was in such denial of what control I had over things, it was just a problem that I needed to fix for myself.
No one else had the answer or advice or anything that I needed to hear.
Nancy: But I think it's interesting because it is, it wasn't that they didn't care. It wasn't that they didn't notice it was, she has this, like you had convinced them. That is how good you were.
Shannon: That's one of my greatest strengths and like worst weaknesses, that I can convince people just about anything. And that I'm fine. When I'm fantasizing about cars running into me
Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I actually wrote a blog about that. If you're, if you are, because it's pretty common.
Because then it's oh, then I can get a break, then I can rest
Shannon: Worst case scenario. I die best case scenario, right? I'm in the hospital for awhile and someone else has to deal with all my stuff. And I can just be in the hospital again, not thoughts that you should have exactly when your life is in balance, right?
Nancy Yeah. Okay. So this happens. What did you do.
Shannon: Yeah. I got on the waiting list to see a therapist because let me tell you, it is hard to find a therapist. And so I called all these places, including my OB GYN, who should have been also looking out for these signs of depression after having a baby, but it's mistake.
Because I'm really good at faking. And I was on the wait list there too. So I waited for a couple of weeks. And then fortunately I got in to see someone and even just the recognition of yeah, no, this is not you. Something is going on with you. You probably have things going on in your life that are causing you extra stress.
And you're adding the layers on top of things, but. you have anxiety and depression and you need to deal with that. And then you'll be able to deal with other things, even just that awareness was like, game-changing okay. But then I use my like old habits of like hustle hustle to fix my anxiety and depression.
So I hired a life coach. And I went to an energy healer and hired a dietician to help me work on my diet. And like literally went right back into those terrible habits of like, all right now that I know I'm going to fix this and I'm going to find out all these things about myself and then it wasn't until I like got a little further down the path that I realized oh, you're doing it again.
Nancy: (laughing) Yeah. It is insidious.
Shannon: it's just how I operate. Problem. And I'm going to fix it. I don't know all the different ways that it can be fixed and go until it's fixed. And that you can't fix yourself because you're always healing and working and journeying. So there wasn't a destination.
Nancy: How do you catch it? Because worthiness and achievement. Are so linked in our brains. Yeah. How did you start pulling that apart?
Shannon: And I would say I'm sure I still fall into those types of habits. There is no fix, but one of the things that I did was my therapist and my life coach have the red flags to watch out for, from me.
So like I gave my support network kind of the, veto card of what if they start seeing certain habits or me starting to say certain things, they know that now it's tap the brakes. And you are not operating from the place that you want to be operating from. And that was really essential for me, especially when I decided to have a second baby that I was like, I need people around me that aren't going to be afraid to challenge me that I've given permission to challenge me. If they start seeing me go down this path,
Nancy: Was that hard for you to ask for that?
Shannon: No, because I was in such a deep despair that it was very aware that there was no other option.
Nancy: Okay. Because that is the key, the support team and, giving them permission to call you out and be like, wow, this is one of your red flags.
Shannon: yeah. And I would say for me, it was essential that those people were outside of my circle. If that makes sense it can't be my husband's trying to be like, you are doing too much.
I'll be like, screw you. Yeah, I'm fine. Or even like my best friends I want, those people to be support, but they can't be the bad guys. And I use that word loosely because it's not being a bad guy, but the truth tellers, let my friends tell me what I need to hear.
Let my external support, tell me what I really need to hear.
Nancy: So who are your truth tellers?
Shannon: My, my therapist who is absolutely amazing. My life coach who's actually now my friend, but we have a different kind of friend relationship obviously founded in this fact. And those are really the two and they, and I have two because they both have very different approaches to things too.
So I feel like if they're both saying this is a flag, then that is serious.
Nancy: Since your spiritual awakening as Brené Brown says, have you had another flare up since the first ?
Shannon: Not, not nearly, what would have gotten me to that place. I think I learned my lesson so hard there that I'll be surprised if I ever go there. I'll catch the workaholic tendencies of, like getting excited about something and wanting to like only focus on that and work on that.
That's never gonna go away, but definitely. Before I can pile it on too heavy. I have the awareness and space to see am I just piling things on because I like the energy of being busy or are these really things that I need to be doing?
Nancy: What are some of your signs, if you, would you be willing to share them?
Shannon: Sure. Mind racing is a big one. Like I can see, like when I'm working on too many things like this, the ping ponging of ideas in my head going all the time. If I wake up with a ton of energy, that's a flag. Because I'm not really a morning person. So if I'm waking up to a normal day, I'll be groggy.
If I like jump out of bed, then that's like a sign. Yeah. Too much is going on
Nancy: So that pattern is addicting.
Shannon: Like it feels good, right? It feels good To wake up with energy in the morning. It feels amazing Yes.
Nancy: I think that fact combined with the fact that slowing down and taking care of ourselves, we've believe is something we have to earn.
I have to work hard enough to earn the break, to earn taking a break. I have to deserve it. I hear that a lot from my clients.
Shannon: I don’t think I have that one. I think I always had been, I feel like if I want to take a break, I can. But the problem for me is when I have a lot of space, like even like good space, it feels like something's missing.
It's that feeling of I must be forgetting something because normally things are so chaotic and I'm bouncing around and I'm like pulled to my capacity that when I actually have space, it's like, What's wrong? And you almost want to, create a problem to put in that space. Yeah. But yeah, I've never felt like I needed to earn rest, but I do sometimes feel like I have to defend it because other people believe that.
Other people believe I work more hours than you do. So why should you? I have to make dinner. And not you, even though it's my night to make dinner. I don't know if this is specific enough of an example of what's going on in my household. Sometimes if it's Wednesday, I'm not making dinner.
And I'm okay. And I think. I have been, I've been working on myself long enough to know like that's other people's stuff, not mine. And so it, it does help me like stay centered in no. And also again I think my burnout and breakdown was so bad that I recognize it's not just better for me.
It's better for everyone. If I can keep this going, it really is because otherwise I'm jumping into traffic and that's not good for anybody. You can make dinner Wednesday night.
Nancy: Yeah. I think that's awesome. Just because I've had clients say to me, I know if I get up and journal and take time in the morning, I feel better, but yeah.
Encouraging themselves to do that, especially if they wake up with the, I have a ton of energy. Yeah. Then you really can't write, then that's not happening.
Shannon: Yeah. And it feels so good. You're like, I don't need to journal. I feel amazing. And then by 11, you're like a zombie, you used up all your energy for that.
Nancy: Exactly. And so it's really, you're able to slow down. Regularly, slow down.
Shannon: I am, but it's not always comfortable. I would say like a lot of times still this part, this far into my journey, it's still uncomfortable sometimes. Like I want to be go, because that feels energizing, but I really know it's not going to be good on that end.
Nancy: Okay. So something that I loved that you talked about was how the striving takes away our creativity. And that's also something that Brene´ Brown talks about
Shannon: because we're basically the same person. (laughing)
Nancy: Tell me more about that.
Shannon: Yeah. I would say like when I'm in strive mode, I'm just like checking things off. I'm just like getting it done. Like I'm very decisive again. Could be good. Could be bad. And so I'm just doing without the space to really like, explore all the options and explore what's interesting about things.
So I think when I slowed down, not just like in a creative Ooh, and then I paint tonight. So creative, like I'm not creative in that way, but I'm definitely able to even just look at problems in situations with different approach. When I have more space, I used to like when I would get like stuck on something, I would think, I just need to like plow through just get it done.
And I would have this message in my mind. Just done is better than perfect and just get through it. And like sometimes that's needed, but most of the time it's the opposite for me of if I'm stuck on something, I need to take space from it. And the more space I can give myself the easier it is to find like the creativity to get through whatever it is.
That's my personal expense. Of, the forcing things through versus letting things.
Nancy: And I love that it's isn't because sometimes I think, Brene´ Brown's message is more about doing creativity. And I think that could be a block to some people.
So I like how you're saying it's expansiveness, it's looking at the ideas. In a bigger way, not just the minutia of the to-do list and check check, check.
Shannon: Which again, feels good. I love a check mark.
But yeah, I'll use like a good, like a tangible exam. I put together a program for our conference, rebel con, and we've picked speakers from all over the country and there's like kind of a format, but like within that format, there's a lot of space for creativity and thinking about the flow of who comes before, who and what types of conversations are important there.
And I had no, my process with that. Every time I try to do it. And there's like this fear of if I don't like, get this done right now, like I'm gonna miss the speakers that I want. Like people are gonna get booked up. And I've all these stories about what I need to just get it done really fast.
But every single time I'm like, Nope, like when I'm not sure, like who I want in this program, I just need to sit back and give myself some space and stop hustling through it because. I will find where those holes need to be filled and they will get filled. And I can say that, because now we're doing it for the sixth time.
So I have like proof that it actually does happen. It is coming regardless. Like somebody's going to be up there to talk like
Nancy: yeah. And I think I know for me, every time I practice that of slowing down and pulling back and stopping the hustle, it's the result is better.
Shannon: I always get the best ideas on vacation.
Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah. But it isn't a logical
Shannon: So why is it so hard to take vacation? ,
Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It's so true.
Okay. So one of the areas you found that was a key was support.. And that we as women don't think about that intentionally, which I loved, because we don't think about that intentionally. Tell me about how you got to that.
Shannon: This is my soul work right now, which sounds more weird than it is. But so when I started rebel con I knew the project was bigger than I could do it myself. So the first thing I did was I wanted to find cool people to work. And so in doing that, what I didn't realize I was doing is creating this circle of friends.
And I didn't realize that I didn't have friends. And it was so weird because I know tons of people and I could always have someone to invite over for something like I go to coffee dates with people every single day but I didn't realize that I didn't have real adult friends.
And I'm still connected with people from my past, but not in the come over right now, type of friend. And so once I had that, I was like, holy cannoli. People don't have this, which is proof from how quickly I was able to assemble this group of friends, because nobody has friends.
It was just so weird because then as soon as this group forms, like chaos started just happening in everybody's life. And it wasn't that because we were friends, chaos was happening, it was. Chaos was happening. And we had the support of friends, all it just came together at the same time.
So like a friend was getting divorced and then the other was breaking up with her boyfriend and I had to quit a job. And this one's dad got cancer and it's just the normal things that happen in life all the time. But all of the sudden we had this circle of support for one another that I just happened to like accidentally have at this point in my life.
Was great for me, obviously it would have been really great to have this circle when I had my breakdown, but whatever, I'm more grown up person now, I'm probably a better friend now than I would have been because I wouldn't have been available because I'd been working and visiting and not wanting to show up for my friends.
So that was my own personal aha moment of oh my God. People were my friends. And I think that supports me in a way that it's almost like crazy to think it never happened. It's not that I need them every day or even talk to them every day. But it's this feeling of, if something goes terribly wrong, I had six different people that I could potentially call.
For whatever and that's just a feeling that I don't think you realize you don't have until you have. And I think, I have like my mom, who's a couple of hours away that if it's really bad, I can call my mom. I have my mother-in-law like, I have other support in my life.
My therapist, my life coach. I have people to talk to, again, not the same as the person. That's going to drop everything and deliver pizza to your house because she knows you're really stressed and your kids need to eat. That's just a different. Yeah, it's just a different situation. And I live in the city, like I'm not friends with my neighbors.
Like we're not like in a cul-de-sac where everybody's kids play together and everybody knows each other, which I feel like is also really common. Like people move away from their family. People don't have the structural support that we had when everyone belonged to a faith organization. There's just this missing piece of support.
And it affects women. I think more than men because women. One are doing way more work, not to make this feminist thing, but they are not more work both like in labor and in emotional work. And so when you're doing so much emotional work, you need support. Emotionally. And that's like my soapbox story, but I really believe it with my whole heart.
And I think what I have hoped that I can do with my organization. I know I can't create these relationships for people. And I think, apps like Bumble and like other places where you can meet people, I think are great, but I think. You have to meet a lot of people until you find your people.
And that's hard to do as a grownup, especially as a workaholic grownup. Because you don't get time to meet people because you got work to do
So that's, what I, my like super strong feeling about support. I think there is this message that we can all do it alone. We can all do it by ourselves. That our strength is in how much we can carry by ourselves. But everybody knows, if you have more people carrying, you're going to carry multiple, like it's multiples how much you can do.
And also that's a very productive way of looking at the world, right? Like sometimes I just need someone to cry with. And I'd like to be able to pick who that is. And now that I have multiple friends that have one I could pick.
Nancy: Right Yeah.
Shannon: What a gift! Absolutely. Or I can call all of them and make them all listen to me cry, which would be fine.
Or I can just put a crying emoji in the group chat and then have my text messages blow up for a day, which also feels really nice.
Nancy: I see these women you found were all built around.
Shannon: This event I found them by accident, right? It is how it happens.
And so again, that's what, why, we've created rebel. The conference is one thing that we produced, but we also have a community which we have events every month and they're literally, that's who they attract. They attract women that are just looking for connection. They want to be able to talk to someone about something different than just the work.
Or just the role they play in their family. And that's one of our goals is just to create another space for people to find each other.
Nancy: My husband or I belong to a book club
We’ll do a couples thing and the women are like my mom's age, but my husband and I will both say it's so awesome to go there and talk about. Just life, not about our day-to-day life or about, our jobs are about like, they just want to hear about life. Like it's just such a different conversation than.
The ins and outs of every day. And it's just such a different level of support.
Shannon: Yeah, I know. I feel like you get lucky when you find it and you should seek it somehow in whatever way, because it is so valuable. I have two young kids, but I don't want to have a group of moms because that's what moms want to talk about.
Not all moms, but like some moms. And the only thing you have in common with other people is that you have kids, you ended up talking about kids and the same thing, as far as your work the only thing you, if the only thing you have in common is your work with these people. You're going to talk about work, but when you don't have work or family in common with people, you talk about it.
Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And it is a thing. I think that people want a formula for. How do I find people? Same thing with when, if you're dating, like how do I find, I looked really hard for my husband. (laughing)
One of the pushbacks I always get Is, my clients will be like I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to go to these events. What is your thoughts on that?
Shannon: It's funny. I'm an introvert, but I'm not, afraid to be around people introvert. I'm the, when I'm around people, I need time by myself introvert.
So it's almost hard for me to know if I was like afraid to talk to people, like how would I meet people? But, we have people that are afraid to talk to people that come to our events all the time and they just don't talk to anybody until someone talks to them, which again probably is scary for them.
But I don't know. Sometimes you just have to, you got to do it. It's if I want to really want to meet someone, but I don't like going on dates. It's wow. And I gotta do it then. No, like after you, so for me, like after we have an event, I know that night it's gonna be hard for me to fall asleep because I get like wound up from the energy of a lot of people in extroverted and so I just know, like on those nights, like I'm gonna have to be up later.
So then the next day I need to like, make sure my schedule, I can sleep in later and I come home and I watch dumb Netflix and I eat ramen noodles. And that's like how I like contain this extroverted that I had to do. And knowing what I need to do on the backend to recover from it. I love that.
I mean is not self care, but it is for me. Yeah.
Nancy: That's intentionality, I mean like you, because you have pulled back on your life and you're not just click through everything. You're able to say, okay, I love doing this gathering and it's draining. How can I do, how can I care there?
Yeah, that's good. That's awesome. So what's your, I want to hear also the idea. Did you struggle with support equals weakness? Initially,
Shannon: No, actually I think my problem is I struggle with a huge ego and that I can do everything better than everybody else. And so that's a problem. And I still struggle with that sometimes, but I.
I know, a lot of people do think if I am asking for help, that means something's wrong. I think I did sometimes. I feel like I'm imposing on people by asking. And I come across that a lot when I talk to people about asking for help. Because that's my biggest thing is if you are struggling, ask for help and I recognize it's really hard, but if you ask someone and they say, no that's fine.
I think there's like this fear of I don't want to ask someone that they might say no, and. I think a lot of that is from, I feel bad if I have to say no when someone asks me for help. So I don't want to make someone else feel bad that they have to say no to me. And it's funny because, so I always use my sister-in-law as an example, my sister.
Is amazing, but she's like very, what's the word almost like Bohemian in that she's just like in and out. And sometimes she's really in, and sometimes she's really out and she just you can't nail her down. She's like a nomad lives wherever, like just one of these people. But she moved to Richmond, which is where I live when my second baby was born and was at my house every single day and awesome.
But if I ask her for something, it's like a note. Oh, it's so funny. And she's great at boundaries. Like I'm telling you if I, if like Oprah Winfrey was like, Shannon, come to lunch right now. And I was like, Hey Jess, I know you're just here hanging out. Can you just keep the baby while I run to Oprah's house?
She'd be like, no, I gotta go. And I'm like, all right, like that's just how she is. And I think it's great because it doesn't mean she's not helpful. It just, she's helpful to me in the way that she wants to help me. And I know this is about her. This is our understanding. It is what it is.
It doesn't hurt my feelings. It doesn't hurt her feelings. Let it just be what it is. But we have this fear of also if I ask this person. Then, if they ask me, I have to say yes. Also not true. You can say no. And I think that's a harder one to do in practice. People can understand it emotionally and mentally, but it's hard to practice.
Nancy: Because I think we get stuck in that keeping score. Yeah.
Shannon: Yeah. And that's not real friendship and that's not real support. Obviously if you. To reciprocate in some way that may be received well, and the gratitude is appreciated, but it shouldn't feel like I'm doing this for you because I might need something from you.
That's not a good relationship on either side. Yeah.
Nancy: Because I actually thought you were gonna say it and I'm glad you didn't. I thought you were going to say, if someone says no, if you ask someone for help and they say no, then they're showing you who they are. Because a common theme in the self-help industry is then they're showing you the type of person they're.
Shannon: no, I get it may not mean no in the future may just me. No this second for exactly what you're asking me for right now, that doesn't mean you can never ask me for anything ever again. I would hope that you don't have friends like that.
Nancy:
Exactly. Like it isn't that It isn't that cut and dry because you talk about this in a Facebook live that you did. I think it was a couple of years ago about how you were learning, how to set boundaries and you had that the fear of missing out by saying no or hurting someone's feelings and that's a huge one for people.
Shannon: Yeah. And I'll say I still have fear of missing out. I don't think I'll ever get over that. I just like to be involved in stuff. And when people are doing cool stuff without me, I just feel left out. And that's my like, teenager self, just it's never going to get better. Maybe it'll get better, but it's not going to be great.
But I also realize now I don't die. It's fine. If I miss something, there will be something else. Yeah, but the fear of hurting people's feelings like this one, actually, I feel like I've been working on a lot lately. I do want people to like me, like that's the feeling that I have as a human being, but I recognize through lots of therapy.
I am a good person. I do want the best for people. I never would you anything, they would intentionally hurt someone. So if I do hurt someone's feelings, it's not because I want their feelings to be hurt. It's because I did something that I didn't realize what hurt their feelings. And so knowing that about myself makes it that much easier to say no, and know, I might hurt someone's feelings because that's not my area.
My intention is not say no to your feelings. My intention is to say no, because I just can't and, or I don't want to. And those are different things. And I think before therapy and before realizing all the stuff about myself, I thought I was not a good, and the only real way to be a good person is to do good things for other people or do things that make people like me or feel appreciated, or, I thought I had to work too.
Yeah. And now I realize no, I'm good. I'm really confident in my morality. And so if there's negative things that happen because of me, it's not intended. And that is what it is.
Nancy: Oh, I love that.
That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's brilliant. Because the other thing also, I'll often tell to clients is you can say no to someone and they can get upset.
That's fine. And you don't have to change your response. And they're not bad people because they got upset. You're not a bad person. Because you said no, we're all just having feelings around here and that's okay.
Okay. So I'm fascinated to hear more about everything you're doing with rebel con and cool. And the communities.
Shannon: So we started the conference in 2017 and we did a couple of events and then people were like, these events are so awesome. Like we want to connect in between. And that was really the catalyst for the community. So we've only been about a year doing the community chapters. So we've got one enrichment, one in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, one in Maryland in between Baltimore and DC.
And then we just signed on a leader in Philadelphia. You heard it here first.. So that's exciting. And basically the idea was we just want to get these people in a room together again, but everyone's so different and everyone's interested in different things.
Like what do we do with them when they're here? And so we just started putting together programming. That was just the kind of programming that we as a team. Wanting to hear. And so instead of it being like a traditional networking group that you're going with the intention of making a connection for some sort of business purpose we wanted it to be, make some sort of connection for a personal purpose.
Okay. And so our content does like balanced between the professional and personal development, but. We will tell you this as professional development and we'll trick you and then you'll come and then really you'll make friends. But it's not, we're not like shady about it. Obviously I say this on podcasts.
I'm going to trick you with this LinkedIn workshop and you're going to leave with a buddy. So I'll put that in the description. I don't care. But yeah. We have panels. We do workshops and then we've just added some new event formats, like member meetups, just more intimate places that people can connect and meet each other.
And the topics that we pick are what I find so fun. We, our most recent panel here in Richmond was titled the breadwinners. And so it was for women that work in very different industries and different roles, but they are all the primary earner in their household. And so talking about what does that mean?
And like, how do they manage their home finances and who does, what in the house? And, what does that do for their relationship? And do they have kids or don't they, and how does that affect things? And just, I think the kinds of questions that you always want to ask people, but it's like rude to ask them but I would, I'm like dying to know do you have joint bank accounts?
Do you have separate bank accounts? Do you give your husband an allowance? Like how does this work. And so we have those kinds of conversations. Other topics that we've done that were like really well received, we had the quitters, so it was women that had quit different things in their life.
So one was like a job, a business, a marriage listening to their mother, like from the like Pratt, like tangible thing to a bad habit. And that was really fun. And then we do also do like industry based ones. We'll have one coming up, that's women in education. And you don't have to also work in education to attend, but if you're interested in, these people that have this job, that's like totally different from anything that you do, which I am fascinated that people have jobs that are different than mine.
It gives you a behind the scenes view. So it's like, what do they do? And what do they see happening? And. What does the world look like through their perspective? So yeah, so that is what we do. We bring women together to talk about whatever they want to talk about. In different formats, because like you were talking about introverts are different people connect in different ways.
Like some people love to just go here and talk, because then they don't actually have to talk to anybody and they can just be in the room and get the energy. Some people do want to connect, but they don't want to connect when there's 50 people in the room. They'd rather do that. So giving people different and some people like a workshop, because then you're there for a purpose and you're doing something.
So then the connection just was accidental, but you're like learning a skill. And sometimes people don't feel good about investing in like having more friends and like being more fulfilled person, but they will invest in a. Like they said LinkedIn, which is what it, that don't get me wrong. That LinkedIn works.
I was like one of the best workshops I ever went to. And I learned so much, but I learned about LinkedIn. And then I also learned about making connections. So we're still going to trick you. Oh, one of my other favorite events that we did that I think is so fun that we have this woman, she used to work at the Pentagon and she does like a brainstorming strategy technique that she can use with anybody.
And so she came to show us the brainstorming strategy technique, but she was like you have to have a problem that you're trying to solve. And I was like, our problems. How to make friends. And so then as a group, we like learned this technique that you could take back to like work on whatever problem solving you have.
But then also we like brainstorm on like how to make friends and then people left and went to happy hour after.
Nancy: So what about the. Those are the communities.
Shannon: Those are the community events. So the conference, our four themes of program, our wellness money, community creativity. And we picked those four themes because at the time was like right after I came out of my burnout.
And I'm like, if I can get these four things. Solid in my life, then I feel like I have a better chance of getting things back on track. So like wellness first, because you know this, I know this, but it's so hard to remember if you don't take care of yourself, like none of the rest of them matters, like walking down the street, waiting for a card at you.
It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank. Wellness then money because money is important and it matters. And women don't talk about it enough. And so opening up the conversation about it, not necessarily like here's what you should do with your money, but like how we can engage with it in a more intentional way.
Community, because of all of these things that I talk about of how important support is, and having other people that care about you and you caring about them. So important. And then creativity, because there has to be some sort of outlet and right, like I said, I'm not a creative person and that I'm not a painter or whatever, but my version of creativity is different than other people's are.
And. Spreadsheets and like strategy and strategy is absolutely a creative pursuit. And so I think, debunking the, what is creativity really? And how can you be intentional about your creativity, whatever that means for you. That's give those are the four. So those are the four things we talk about and we try to bring people that have an interesting perspective to share.
I am not a big fan of experts. Because I'm like, you don't know me know my life. So I'd rather not have an expert on the stage. Tell me what I should be doing. I'd rather have someone share their experience and what they know about that, what they've learned from that experience versus tell me what to do.
That is the person. And it's really fun and it's most of what we get back, definitely people make comments about the speakers that they are inspired and, discovered someone new that they hadn't heard about and learned interesting things. But most of the feedback is they're just jazz to have been in a room of people that they feel like whether they're strangers or not.
Everyone in that room genuinely wants each other to be successful. And it is, I forget because I literally built that room. And so I live in it all the time, but that's not the room that most people live in. And so that's really, to me, if I get that feedback, that's how I know the event was a success.
So even just for one day, if you could hang out. Everyone wants you to be your best. You like that's worth the price of admission to me. So we do have
Nancy: food, man. That's important
Shannon: and snacks.
Nancy: Yeah. And this takes the conference is in
Shannon: Richmond, Virginia, this spring.
Nancy: Okay. And what's the website
Shannon: for that?
Rebel, R E B E L E con.com.
Nancy: Okay. And we'll also have that in the show notes in case people want to check that out. So I, the thing I love about your story is that you're willing to share it. That's awesome. And, but it wasn't a direct path and it still isn't, because I always am saying, I think for a long time I believed I needed to be an expert in order to do this, to do teach this work.
And I really got better at this work when I finally was like, I'm just doing this and it's a struggle. Every day. And I really try every day and I really try to be intentional. Yeah. That's the best we can ask. And just to witness other people struggles and that we're in this together. And how can we pull out of this?
I think that is that's, it's a gift that you're sharing it. So thank you for taking the time.
Shannon: Oh my gosh. Thank you for letting me and for sharing so many stories.
Nancy: Two things that I would take away. A, it's not easy. And B it's a choice. Like you really have to make the choice to not get sucked into the hop up, to recognize, I need to slow down to challenge myself, to get out of the house and meet new people too.
It's never going to be the great, the perfect time or the feel the best, or you're absolutely going to know for sure. This is the right step. It's always going to be a choice. That's a risk.
Shannon: Yeah. And sometimes it is too hard. And then you just need to wait until it's the next day. Because there's a lot of pressure there too, of like I just don't want to do it and I have to make myself and I'm thinking sometimes not
Nancy: Love that. Thank you for saying that too. Yeah. Because my big thing is it's, it's all about just being calm. To yourself. Like the more you can plow on that kindness, because a lot of people think it's about, I need to accept myself a hundred percent for who I am and I'm like, I can't do that.
I've really struggled to do that, but I can be kind, even before this interview, I was like super nervous. Yeah. And I was like, you're going to get nervous. That's what you do here. We know what we're doing. We got this. We're going to go in and just settling myself down enough to do that. Makes such a big difference.
Shannon: And being nervous as great. It's like Bruce Springsteen said that if he ever doesn't get nervous before a show, he knows he's going to retire. Because it's done. The magic is gone.
Nancy: It's true because you really are working at it. That shows your passions there and you want to do a good job and all that stuff.
And you're doing such great things.
Shannon: So I was a little nervous to, but thank you so much for taking the time to do this and sharing your story And check out Rebel.com and you might be meeting some new friends.
Before we go, I wanted to highlight something Shannon said, which was the power of recognizing your intentions are good. So often I hear from clients that their monger was attacking them for saying no, we're making a mistake and they try to talk down their monger and it just doesn't work.
It will never work to try to talk down your monger or rationalize with her. The only thing that works is strengthening the voice of the biggest fan, which is why I loved what Shannon said so much, because that is the voice of the biggest fan. Your biggest fan will remind you, Hey, you have good intentions.
You just cannot make it to the event you aren't being mean. You aren't being lazy. You're just prioritizing yourself, which is awesome. So often we fall in the trap of believing our monger. She says such terrible things about ourselves practice asking to hear from your biggest fan and reminding yourself at your core, you are a genuinely kind person and even genuinely kind people can't please everyone.
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