Episode 150: How to Let Go of the Past

In today’s episode, I continue looking at the power of our past and how we can face our stories and move through them so they don’t cause more pain.

Your past matters—even though the personal growth industry is obsessed with the future you at the expense of the past you. In that world, the only real change and movement in your life comes from looking forward, setting goals, and just doing it like I talked about in Episode 148.

But I believe that it’s OK to have a past. 

It’s OK to be perfectly imperfect.

It’s OK to share stories from your past. 

It’s OK to have trauma and pain in your past. 

It’s OK to have a joyful past, too.

The bottom line? You cannot ignore your past. 

If you do, it will creep up on you in the personification of your Monger as your parents or in the way you talk to your kids or how you interact with your spouse. Your past plays a role in your current life—period. 

It’s immensely powerful to face our stories—to look them dead in the face and slowly release their power through patience and compassion for ourselves. That’s how you live happier.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The first step in the process of not letting your past control your life

• Practical ways to move through the stories from your past that are holding you back

• Why we often tell our stories like a news bulletin—drama and all—and how we need to focus more on how something made us feel

• How you can learn from your past and make peace with it

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

• The Happier Approach Book

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Imagine your ex partner broke up with you out of the blue, you were caught completely unaware and were stunned by the breakdown. Now, here you are. Years later, you have a new partner who you absolutely adore, but you notice you've constantly feel like you're walking on eggshells, expecting the other shoe to drop.

Oops. Over every little thing. She does checking her phone when she's gone and hyper analyzing everything she says, and you notice you pick fights over the silliest things. This is not the relationship you want to have. And you know, it's because of your past partner and you love to blame her for her. And damaging him so badly, but it isn't hopeless.

You can move past this pain and hurt with a little work and a lot of stuff. Loyalty. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. As I mentioned in the last episode, the personal growth industry trend is to tell people that real change and movement comes only from looking forward, setting goals and just do it.

Yes, we do need to set goals, look forward and just do it. And sometimes we need to heal our past first as with any all or nothing thinking we have lost some key components of real and lasting change. Your past matters. Yep. I said it it's okay to have a past. It is okay to share stories from your past. It is okay to have trauma and pain in your past, and it is okay to have a joyful path.

Bottom line, you can't ignore your past. It creeps up on us and the personification of our monger as our parents and the way we talk to our kids or in how we interact with our spouse. Our past plays a role in our current lives period. Let's go back to the example of past relationships. You're letting the show and hurt from that past event.

Impact your thoughts about this new relationship. Now rationally, you can see that your new partner is a different person altogether and should not be treated as if they were the same as your ex. This isn't fair to them. They are a totally different person, but once your monger gets talking well, rationality, it just goes out the window.

The first step in the process of not letting your past control your life is owning the fact that this is even happening and chatting with your new partner about the fact that your past emotions are clouding your current relationship. When you notice it happening, lovingly remind yourself that this is a different person, that learning how to trust again is hard and that she is worth the risk.

The glitches, when we get stuck in the past, when we are living and reliving the past, over and over in our day-to-day lives, we become victims, martyrs, and just plain unhappy people. I assume this getting stuck in the past is what all the only look forward people are talking about, but I believe the message gets skewed and turns into an absolute, rather than the message being healed your past.

So you don't get stuck there. The message becomes ignore your past altogether. In today's episode, I want to share some practical ways. You can start moving through the stories from your past that are holding you back. To start off with share your story. That's right. Share it, bring it out of the closet, dust it off and share your pain, your struggles, the irrational beliefs that you got when you were eight years old, share those stories.

Find someone who loves you and you can trust to just listen without judging. In this day and age, we don't seem to have the patience for each other stories. We get impatient. We give too much advice or we want to share our story too quickly. So choose wisely. As you go through the act of sharing your story, your perspective will change.

You may be able to see the other person's side. You may be able to let go some of that old resentment, or it may just feel really good to say out loud. What has been playing unconsciously all these years? A quick note of caution here. We often tell stories of our past as if we're reporting a news bulletin.

We share the story as we always have. We share the injustice, the unfairness, the righteous indignation we get. So caught up in sharing the drama of the story. We forget to share how the experience made us feel. I mean, really feel, not just the obvious anger or sadness, but that we were dismissed or made to feel less than.

Befriend yourself during this process. It's one thing to have a supportive person who gets it, but we need to be willing to find the compassion for ourselves. I have a shame filled story from my past of cheating on a test in the sixties. Looking back now, it's a funny story because I was literally sitting next to the teacher's desk and a friend was walking up to put her paper on the teacher's desk.

And I asked my friend for the answer, what was I thinking? The teacher gelled. My parents were upset. I was a mess. I can fully remember that moment. And the aftermath talking to my parents feeling consumed by shame. How I felt the shame, the confusion, the fear of not knowing the answer. And today I can say to myself, wow, sweepy that was so hard feeling.

All those things. As a 12 year old, you made a mistake and you aren't good at cheating, but allowing myself to get fully in my body and having the compassion for that little girl. Make sure to befriend yourself through the feelings, allow everything that comes up and just be there. I always say, treat yourself as you would your niece allow yourself to feel the feelings of anger, sorrow, grief, self doubt, and insecurity.

This is often the piece that gets missed. We convince ourselves it isn't important, or it isn't a big enough deal. Well, if it is playing there over and over in your head, It's a big deal. For example, I remember a time when I was shaving my legs as a teenager, and I didn't check the razor before I went over my leg and the razor was damaged and I scraped up my entire leg, blood running everywhere from the numerous scrapes and burns the razor had left.

It was so freaking painful. I immediately went downstairs and showed my mom who said, well, why didn't you check the razor first? That was really stupid. I was mortified. I assumed she would give me more sympathy and understanding, but instead she focused only on my silly mistake as an adult. I've shared this story with my mom who not surprisingly has no recollection looking back.

I'm sure she was tired and stressed and just didn't have the capacity to comfort me when I had done something. So avoidable to myself. I share that story because it is a simple every day non-traumatic story. And yet for years, my monger used that story to remind me that I can't be trusted. I caused my own problems with my patients and not checking things out before I take action.

It is a simple story from my past that kept me. It's an easy story to stay in blame around blaming myself that I'm incompetent blaming my mom for shaming, me and round and round we go. The only way out is to befriend myself through the feelings. I shared that story out loud. I talk with my mom about it.

I gave myself compassion. To not get stuck in the story, you have to allow the discomfort cry for the eight year old, who was told they were stupid and would never succeed, punch a pillow for the anger you feel for not getting that promotion. You deserved grieve for your mother who you lost at age 18.

Just allow it allow the resentment, the bitterness and the anger. Then what can you learn? This is the piece that we lose sight of not saying that we can always learn from past tragedies. Please hear me when I say that. But often when things happen in the past, we are too quick to pull it out as a poor me story.

One of the ways to heal it is to ask yourself, how can I do this different. So you had a parent who puts too much pressure on you and made everything about achievement. What can you learn to notice when you were repeating that pattern in your own life to catch yourself when you overly praise people on their accomplishments to notice when you get caught up in building your own life based on praise.

Now one quick reminder. One of my guiding principles is everyone is doing the best they can with what they have in rising strong Bernay brown talks about how she operates from the assumption that everyone is doing the best they can. But I like to add the phrase with what they have. As a reminder to myself that we're all on different spots in our journeys.

Usually people aren't trying to hurt us by doing something different than we would. They're just doing the best they can, based on their past coping skills, personality traits, life stress, their reaction action probably makes sense. It might not be our reaction or one that feels good to us, but it is a logical reaction based on who the person is.

Like my mom in the razor story, she was doing the best she could with what she had that day, who knows what she had going on. When I walked down with my cut-up legs, we will never know, but living in a state of blame for the fact that she said the wrong thing, won't help either one of us. So by repeating this phrase, it allows me to give them a little room to be who they are and to not take the action quite so personally.

When I was dating my now husband, he would drive me crazy because when the world overwhelmed him, he shut off his cell phone. So you couldn't reach him no matter how hard you tried, he would do this for a few hours or a few days as his girlfriend at the time, I would take that action personally. I mean, he should want to talk to me.

I'm his girlfriend. But in reality, it had nothing to do with me. It was his coping skill. It was him doing the best he can with what he has for him. When he gets overwhelmed, he needs to shut out the outside world. And he does that by turning off his cell phone. It's how he takes back control it. Isn't what I do.

In fact, it's the opposite of what I do. But when I could pause and remember he's doing the best he can with what he has, I could move on without getting hurt or sad. And I knew he would call when he felt like re-engaging with the world. A more serious example. I had a client who was struggling with her sister because her sister had done something that hurt the family and they were having a hard time.

Her family. Hadn't spoken to the sister in a few years and my client was experiencing a lot of grief, frustration and anger when she pulled back and looked at the whole picture and the context of who her sister was, personality traits, family placement, coping skills, et cetera. It wasn't that big of a stretch to see why she had engaged in the negative hurtful behavior.

At the time she was doing the best she could with what she had as was my client. Once my client was able to see this. She began to start the process of healing and moving forward, it didn't change. The fact that my client felt hurt by her sister or take away her sister's responsibility for the behavior, but it did help my client pull back from the emotions to see that her sister's behavior wasn't meant to be intentional so she could move towards forgiveness rather than holding on to all.

We are all just doing the best we can with what we have. Most of us try very hard to be good people and make good decisions. And we are all human. We all make mistakes. We all, at one point or another, have poor coping skills, poor response skills, poor conflict skills or listening skills. But the secret is to have a little curiosity and ask yourself in the context of who this person is, are they doing the best they can with what they have?

These steps are in no way, a quick fix. Each of these steps can take days, weeks, months, or years, depending on the power of the story and how far we have buried the story in our own psyche. It is immensely powerful to face our stories. Look at them dead in the face and slowly release their power bottom line to live happier.

We have to face our past with patience and compassion for ourselves. We have been taught that our deepest needs feelings and desires are scary and we need to protect the world from them. So we hustle to perform, achieve and earn our worthiness. But it's time to be loyal to you to take off the mask, to face your high-functioning anxiety and to become confident in who you are.

---

Episode 149: How To Recognize Trauma and Show Up for Our Inner Kiddo

In today’s episode, I am talking with Nicole Lewis-Keeber, a social worker, business therapist, and mindset coach about the T-word trauma and how it plays out in our lives.

Trauma.

This word is loaded for so many of us.

When we think of trauma, we think of what we call Big T Traumas: images of war, combat, natural disasters, physical or sexual abuse, terrorism, or catastrophic accidents usually come to mind. 

There are also Little T Traumas. These are often personally traumatic because of the timing, the place, or our emotional state: interpersonal conflict, divorce, infidelity, legal trouble, financial worries, moving, and many more. 

Although something could be considered a “Little T” Trauma, that doesn’t mean it’s less traumatic or less damaging. Instead, it allows us to see the word trauma in a different way and realize that it can take on many shapes and forms.

Today on the show, I’m kicking off the month by chatting with Nicole Lewis-Keeber. Nicole is a business therapist and mindset coach who works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their businesses. She's a Licensed Clinical Social Worker with a Master’s in Social Work and has rich and varied experience as a therapist. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Nicole’s definition of big T trauma and little t trauma and how big T trauma explodes and little T trauma erodes

• How the personal development culture keeps us trapped by discouraging us from looking at our past

• Why the phrase “inner child” has gotten so much flack and why being willing to listen to your inner kiddo is so important

• How our inner kiddos come out in our present-day work and wreak havoc and what we can do about it

• Nicole’s tips for finding a quality coach or therapist

Resources mentioned:

• nicole.lewis-keeber.com
  

• Follow Nicole on Facebook

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nicole: We have been taught that if it's not big explosive and like life-changing in a moment, then it's not trauma. And that's just absolutely not true. That is a type of trauma. One of the other ones is, as you said, small to your little T trauma, and that is those cumulative experiences that we were have when we are in our formative years, which is usually when we're kids that change how we see ourselves.

They change how we value ourselves. They change how we feel, either responsible for something. And we'd begin to take that information in and it changes us

Nancy: in the professional development world. There is a belief that has been sold to us for too many years. Frequently, when you hear the difference between a coach and a therapist, you'll hear that a therapist makes you go into your past and dig up all your old wounds while the coach just takes you from where you are and moves you forward.

No need to go into the past and dig up all that stuff. I confess that I believed a version of that lie for too many years. I believe that while our past might influence our future, the important part was moving forward. I'm sure this belief was largely influenced by my monger, pushing my high functioning anxiety, self relentlessly toward accomplishing and doing it.

Who has time to look in the past. Let's keep marching forward as with everything in life. It isn't that. It isn't that explainable and it isn't that black and white, the process of personal growth is nuanced. Today. I know that ignoring huge parts of our personal history, won't help us move forward. We have to look at our past if fruit going to heal anything, we have to be willing to go back there and see what we're carrying into our current life, which is why I'm so excited for this episode.

A chance to put down the ever-present push towards the future and dive into the nuance of personal growth. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

This month, we're looking at our pasts. And more specifically, we're talking about the T word trauma. This word is so loaded for many of us. When we think of trauma, we think of war, natural disasters, physical or sexual abuse, terrorism, or catastrophic accidents. Those are what we call big T trauma. And then there are also the little T traumas.

These are things that happen in our lives that are personally traumatic because of the timing, the place or our emotional state. They can be interpersonal conflict, divorce, infidelity, legal trouble. Financial worries. Moving. Let me be clear because we call them little T traumas. That doesn't mean they're less traumatic or less damaging.

I believe the term loyalty allows us to see the word trauma in a different way because we've gotten so stuck in seeing trauma only in the big T trauma way. I think it's helpful to recognize that trauma can take on many shapes and forms. Today on the show. I'm kicking off the month by chatting with Nicole Lewis, Keeber a licensed clinical social worker with a master's in social work.

She is certified in Brené Brown’s dare to lead methodology and works with entrepreneurs to create and nurture healthy relationships with their business. She's been featured on numerous media outlets, including fast company and NPR for her work in breaking the stigma of mental health and business ownership.

She writes and speaks about the impact of small T trauma on businesses. But her biggest, most important work is combining therapeutic processes with business coaching to help entrepreneurs build emotionally sustainable and financially successful businesses. On this episode, Nicole and I talk about why the phrase inner child has gotten so much flack and why being willing to go back and listen to your inner kiddo is so important.

How the personal develop culture keeps us trapped by discouraging us from looking at our past Nicole's definition of big T and little T traumas and how big T traumas explode and little T traumas. How our inner kiddos come out in our present day work and wreck havoc and what we can do about it and tips for finding a quality coach or therapist today.

I'm very excited to have Nicole Lewis Keeber on our podcast. And we're going to talk about trauma. Yes. So welcome Nicole, before I I'm excited to have you here. So Nicole is also a social Worker?

Nicole: Yeah, I have a master's degree in social work and I'm a licensed clinical social worker. Okay.

Nancy: And Nicole specializes, or one of the things she works on is healing that inner kiddo as she calls it.

And I was telling Nicole, before we hit record that I have railed against the idea of which is very unusual for a therapist to rail against this, but railed against my idea of inner kiddo and little T traumas. And I feel like I have bought into. Incorrectly bought into all of the stereotypes and the crap, I will say that's around this topic.

And so I'm owning my own skepticism and I'm owning that. I have also talked about it in a skeptical way, and I went to bring, Nicole's going to start us off this month. We're talking about all things, trauma Going to start us off by dealing with my skepticism around this topic. So we're going to dive right in.

I love your phrase, inner kiddo. And a lot of times when we hear about healing, our inner child, the phrase inner child can be loaded. So I want to break it down and make it a little less scary for people. What does that mean and why is it important to be aware of our inner kiddo?

Nicole: Yeah, you're right. Like the, it does feel very loaded.

You, what comes to mind is like almost deep shamanic workers, something like go in and do a soul retrieval or, and not that those things are great. I know people who've benefited from things like that, but it does, it feels very heavy. And so that's one of the reasons why I say inner our kiddo, because I think it, it lightens it a little bit.

And really what it boils down to is that. As human beings, the thoughts, feelings, or behaviors we have as adults. They come from our experiences when we're kids, that's how we become who we are. That's how, the patterns of our behavior gets set in place. And so many of those experiences that we have that create that adult self

Are connected to experiences that we had when we were kids that made us think or feel something about ourselves in relationship to the world around us. And so when you look back, a lot of the times you can say, oh my gosh, when. For instance, when I was six years old in the first grade I was in the regular reading group and then I couldn't read the I'm still bitter about it.

I couldn't read the word lion because I couldn't read the word. I got demoted to a different reading group that was low.. And so that six year old, that was the very first initiation into my inner kiddo. My six year old, six year old inner kiddos saying, we're not smart.

We don't get it right. Which was reinforced multiple times over the years because I have alerted learning difference and prophets to process information differently. But that's six years. That first experience of being punished in a way for not being able to read a word, oh, she is still there.

So that is an inner kiddo of mine that got created that still whispers in my ear at 49 around things that I do in my life that require me to put myself out there.

Nancy: So it is just fascinating. It's like a duh, obviously the things we're going to have done as a, as the things that are going to have happened to us as a child are going to affect us growing up.

But I feel like the self-development world has said, especially one of the things that drives me the most crazy is in the differences between a therapist and a coach is they will say they being the coaches will say I will take you from now and move you forward. And those nasty therapists, they make you go into your past and pull stuff up and it's just yucky.

And so we don't want to do that. So we're just going to go. Forward and that just doesn't work

Nicole: . No. And what shaming language is that you did to abandon the first part of your life that you had before you met this daggum coach? That's telling you that none of that matters, and I get it.

When I started my own business, I was a money mindset coach for small business owners and entrepreneurs. And I. Really got taught a lot about mindset, tools and tricks and how not to focus on the past. We want to move you forward. We want to do this, want to do that. And I could not abide it for very long because I just saw that you know who we are, I'm trained with Brené Brown and her Dare to Lead processes.

So one of the things she says is who we are, is how we lead. Who we are came about by these experiences that we had. And then for a coach to say, we're going to ignore the first half of your life to help you be successful in the next chapter of it. It makes no sense to me whatsoever, and it doesn't work and it's dismissive and bypassing and gaslighting.

And I don't like it.

Nancy: talk more about that. That it's dismissive and bypassing and gaslighting.

Nicole: I'm being really dramatic here. (laughter)

Nancy: No please, I think we need to, I think we need to dramatize this, bring this up. Put an exclamation point on this?

Nicole: Exactly. Because I've been a therapist, I've been a coach.

That's why my clients now call me a business therapist because I'm somewhere in the middle and I've been in therapy. I get it. It's dismissive because you're not meeting. If you're a coach and there's a lot of h arm done by coaches in the industry. And I'm sorry to say it is true. In fact, there's a lot of coach abuse that happens, which again, sorry to say, but it's true.

And what happens is that when someone's asking you to dismiss the thoughts, feelings, behaviors, and patterns that you have in your life, where do you go from there? What you go, where you go from there is you begin to mimic what this person is telling you to do, to be who they're telling you to be, to buy into their one trick pony model to change, all these people.

So it's dismissive because it does not allow for you to be who you are to understand yourself in a new way. And it's gaslighting because they're trying, I'm being really dramatic here. It's gaslighting because it is. It's having the experience of someone saying that wasn't true for you. You just weren't looking at it the right way.

Nancy: Oh yes. I don't think that's dramatic at all because I think that happens all the freaking time.

Nicole: And you should have the same experience of all these clients I've worked with, who come from diverse backgrounds, different experiences, different motivations, different opportunities. You should be able to have the exact same outcome that they have because.

Let's ignore everything that happened to you up to this day. That is gaslighting.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I felt that's dramatic at all because I think that is, that just repeats the process of what I'm experiencing. Isn't accurate. So I need to go outside of myself and figure out what they're experiencing and then swallow that as my experience.

And then it just sends us down the spiral again and again,

Nicole: It doesn’t bring all the versions of you with you. And that's why I love the in our kiddo work is because when we do this work, we bring your six year old. We bring your eight year. We brought your 16 year old, who can be a real, hell on wheels bias, but she's really fantastic in a lot of areas in my life and others, not so much, but she gets to be a part of it.

So we are not bi- passing her. We are not leaving them behind. They're getting healed with us along the way. And I think that is a true aligned experience in our life as we are healing and becoming the next version of ourselves when no one gets left behind. Yes.

Nancy: Because I think also, part of where I got dinged on it or messed up with it, or didn't enjoy being the inner child work was when I was doing my training.

And one of the. Professors would be, was very much in the model of, he was a narcissist He said it himself. It wasn't like, yeah, I should have known red flag right there. But he said he would pride himself on being able to talk to someone and then be like, oh, it wasn't this bad, but your dad wears blue pants.

And so now you don't like any man that wears blue pants and it was just like those connect and there wasn't any, is that true for you? Or does that resonate with you? It was just like, let's make these bizarro connections that I'm, I think it's scary to think. I might be unconsciously acting out things that I'm not even aware of.

Nicole: Yeah. And we all are though. Yeah,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And so rather than facing that, I have been. Then no, I just, I can't, I push it away rather than being in the past, few years I've started being like, let's look at that rather than running from it.

Nicole: Good. Hey you are in company, excuse me. I was in the therapist's office as a therapist.

With her talking to me about, so what have you done to work on your trauma? And I'm like, yeah, I don't really think what I had was trauma. Like I was a therapist in the therapist chair yelling, or I still did not think that my trauma was trauma. Cause he wants to look at any of that.

No fun. Who wants to go back and think about your seven year old? Scary. Yeah. So I get it. Yeah.

Nancy: So let's talk about trauma, the big T word cause. And cause a lot of people have this definition. If I wasn't sexually assaulted it, that's the one I hear the most. If I wasn't molested, I wasn't sexually assaulted.

So therefore I have no trauma that it has to be some big T trauma, but really these little and not that big T trauma is, Yes. And there are little T traumas that happen all the time. And there is them the comparison of my trauma isn't as big as your trauma. So therefore I don't need to discuss it.

Nicole: Yeah. Brené brown calls that comparative suffering. Yeah. Again, been there, so yeah, let's unpack that a little bit. We, as we, as a culture, we don't like to talk about our feelings a whole lot. And we certainly don't like to talk about things, like trauma. And so we give very, a very small wedge of attention to what we will allow to be trauma.

And so as a culture, we tend to look at trauma as those big T traumas, catastrophic illness, violent violence or maybe you got in a really dramatic accident or Natural disaster know, stuff like that. You have PTSD, like combat trauma. Those are really the only places that we allow for anyone to.

To trauma, you had childhood child abuse these things. Yeah. And even then we don't have a comfort level where we allow people to really address it and get the appropriate attention and treatment for it. So we've barely allowed anyone to define trauma from a big T standpoint. We certainly, aren't going to make a lot of room for people to look at it from a small T standpoint.

Yeah. And to be honest with you, a lot of the small T traumas are connected with the systems around us and need us to be traumatized in order for them to work. And which is big, but yeah,

Nancy: talk about unpacking something

Nicole: So we have been taught that if it's not, big explosive and like life-changing in a moment, then it's not trauma and that's just absolutely not true.

That is a type of thing. There are other types of trauma and one of the types of trauma there's many of them, and I'm not going to go into all of them right here. But one of the other ones is, as you said, small T or little T trauma. And that is those cumulative experiences that we were have when we're in our formative years, which is usually when we're kids that change how we see ourselves.

They change how we value ourselves. They change how we feel either, responsible for something. And we'd begin to take that information in and it changes us. It changes how we see us and it can be things like maybe, you got bullied at school and I'm not talking the extreme. Bullying, but maybe just like everyday this, we don't want to play with you, or like me, I grew up with a learning difference and I'm 49 back then. They did not. I'm like back in the olden days, it was severe or learning disabilities, that any, if anyone got any attention whatsoever for their learning difference. And so I went through 12 years of school.

Not being able to learn the way I was being taught and just feel every day, going to this place every day and feeling lost, that is a traumatic experience and not a lot of people would consider to be trauma moving around a lot and always being the new kid having, a parent who's working all the time and you don't have their attention the way that you need.

Form your identity or your sense of self from this adult. Who's important to you. We could go on and on about how these small T traumas can show up for us that are very different for us. And, but they change how we see ourselves. And so I always say that big T trauma explodes, small T trauma erodes, but they are both powerful enough to move mountains.

because we don't identify those experiences, like getting made fun of, and with your book report or w not having money for lunch every day, whatever it may be. Like, it can be different for you. Whatever that is, we don't look at it towards trauma and therefore we internalize it and think that was just me.

Or maybe I deserved it, or everybody has a bad experience at school. I'm no different. And it takes away our agency over those. And people just accept it. They're just like, yeah, it was just stuff that happened. And a lot of times we don't make those connections that your best friend, not being your best friend anymore.

When you were 13 and went to junior high school impacts the fact that you have a hard time with your partner. I do a lot of business work with the partner that you have in your business right now. It absolutely does. Yeah, it absolutely does. And so there's small T traumas add up and they're usually more, covert and hide under the surface a bit, if they're a little bit harder to upack and make those associations and understand those patterns, unless you're willing to go back and look at that seven year old and say, what was it about that experience that you're still feeling now?

Yeah, but again, we don't look at trauma in the way as a culture and as a society in ways that allow for people to work through this process. So when you said earlier, like I didn't look at it and want to look at it. We are not socialized to look at it.

Nancy: Yeah, totally not. And, but it's interesting, even that example you gave, I remember sitting in my therapist office and having her say that's a little T trauma and me being like oh no, and it was, it's a story I tell over and over that I went to college andI did not fit in.

It was a bad fit for me in and I was miserable and. And all the things I did in that time to, to try to fit in. And I didn't, and I was like swimming upstream. And that affected me, like in my ability to make friends as an adult, in my ability to talk about my college experience, because everyone else had an amazing college experience, but mine sucked and what's wrong with me.

And. But all of those things that I could say to you now, oh yeah. This major, legally affect my life. Even saying that I'm still embarrassed to say it was a little.

Nicole: Yeah. We've been socialized not to. Permission slips are a big thing permission to, feel it and I said earlier I did have, I had small T trauma.

I also had big T trauma. I had a parent who was very abusive, and even still sitting on that couch because it was a couch sitting on that couch. I still said I don't know that I would go so far as to say what happened to me was trauma. And she was like, Yes it is. And I was like, yeah, but she, it wasn't like, a good time to penny.

Did you watch that show?

Nancy: No. No.

Nicole: Okay. I'm dating myself again. It wasn't like, the afterschool special where you see the kid, abuse and neglect, like what, the way that people think about it. So I would say, and again, I was a therapist still saying this out loud, cause it had to do with me.

And I was like, I don't really know if it would. And I said, but all these other people who have all these terrible experiences, I see those as trauma. I just don't know if I get to have I get the claim, that word, like I deserve it to be that word, which is so messed up when you think about it. But it was so very true.

Cause I hadn't really allowed myself at that point. To see that those things were in fact big T and small T traumas, until I could really understand that I couldn't move through the process to heal it.

Nancy: Yeah. Because that was the, the irony is once I, once she said that to me, I think that's a little too trauma.

And then I came home and I shared that with my husband, which took everything I had because I'm sure I was sure he was going to be like, get over yourself. I then was like, Gave myself so much more grace and kindness around it, and then could see it playing out in my life. And when I would go into social situations would be like, you're not 22, you're 47.

Get it, we can do this, we are that we're not replaying this. And just that little permission to be like, this was a big deal. Helped so much, but if we don't give ourselves that this is a big deal. We're constantly minimizing. And then I would be the first to share with someone how much I hated, I had this demonizing of my college of the university, how much I hated it and it was miserable and I'll tell them, I would tell people not to go there.

But that was because of my own little T trauma that I'm like throwing up all over the world about

Nicole: exactly. Beause what does trauma do? It creates a pattern, right? And so the traumatizing experiences tip sometimes goes away or the traumatizing person goes away their circumstance. And what happens is we pick it up after that point and we continue to traumatize ourselves with the experience of it.

Like we pick it up at that point, we become the person playing out the pattern, the belief system around it. It becomes ours at that point. So no matter what the trauma is, that's a pattern that happens around trauma and that you can see play out in that. And that's how it works. But if we don't allow ourselves to see it as a trauma, then we miss those opportunities to see how those patterns.

Really happen. And I was at a retreat couple of years ago that I was asked to come be a part of, and my goodness, there were people in that room that were tentatively rolling out the fact that they had a sexual assault. And they're like, yeah, I guess maybe that was probably a small T traumas and I'm pulling my hair out.

It was a big T trauma and you can't even let yourself have that, oh my goodness. name it!

Nancy: And you think that is socialization.

Nicole: Yes. Mostly socialization. Yes. Yes. Because lifts, if you grew up in, you had an abusive parent, if you grew up in a system around religion, like these systems around us usually are the ones that are participating in some of those traumatizing events.

And so what benefit do they have? They have, let us experience them. Speak about them and get help with them. We get socialized too, childhood's rough, no one had a great childhood, just suck it up and deal with it. Or, works just like that corporations are evil. Like we just get socialized into just shut up and deal with it.

Nancy: Yeah. So how, because even as I'm talking, is that even if my monger, I call my mom the inner critic, my monger is saying. Oh, that was such a stupid example you gave, as someone has such a bigger trauma and you're giving your freaking example from college. Come on, like that's, it's insidious.

Nicole: Yeah, our inner critics are very loud.

And honestly, I always say you have a loud inner critic. It means that you probably had a lot of, Hey, I probably have more childhood trauma that you need to unpack. Because I really believe, I think our inner critic is there for a lot of these there's people who tell you, as a part of our nervous system, it's a part of us.

That's supposed to keep us alive and keep us on the straight and narrow as far as, our reptilian ancient nervous system and our, our. Prefrontal cortex, right? Yeah. It's really new part of our anatomy, old brainstem and system is really geared towards like that list. Scary. Don't do that.

What can I do to get you not to do that? Can I berate you internally until you don't do the thing? Like it's a truth thing. But I always say that I feel like our inner critic is connected to our inner kiddos and that it's a protector of them. And so that's why I always tell people, I'm like, don't shut down your inner critic.

Don't dismiss it. Don't say it, kill it, fire it, all the things we tell you to do get curious about it because it's usually protecting some inner kiddo that needs some attention.

Nancy: So how would you do that?

Nicole: This is what I do. I say. So when my inner critic starts to get up there, I'm like, okay. So I'm doing what I'm experiencing feels unsafe.

Right or it feels vulnerable. Like I just shared an experience and I'm comparing it to what other people might think trauma is. And so my inner critic is trying to put me out, get me back on track, show me not to do that thing anymore, or to protect the younger version of me. And so what I will say is I hear you, I'm listening.

And what oftentimes say all the time. Cause sometimes your inner critic's just being the pain in the ass, but they, 80% of the time, what will happen is the inner critic, voice will step aside in a younger voice version. It sounds. And I don't have multiple personality. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but that's what people are afraid about.

When I talk about this work, they're like, you're going to make me, oh, get the Sybill, from the seventies. No, that's not how it works. What will happen is a younger version of voice will say I, I, it feels like the Lunchroom, in school and the first day again, that didn't feel nice.

I didn't like that. Where do I fit? I don't feel like I belong somewhere. Like when you take a breath and you say, I hear you what do you need here? A lot of times I'll come up and then you can attend to it and say, oh, you're right. That did feel like the first day of school in the cafeteria.

When you can't find your place and you don't feel like people know you and you feel misunderstood. Like I totally get that. And I'm so sorry. And you're still. We're good. We're good. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, because that's, when I first, I talk about acknowledging your feelings, like that's, when you hear your inner critic talk, then, start acknowledging your feelings.

But the trick to that is really what you're saying is you have to go, it's not just what I'm feeling right now. Like you have to be willing to go a little under the surface because sometimes you might be thinking you're feeling angry or ashamed, but you're really sad or and fearful because the inner kiddo is sad and fearful from that example.

So it's a deeper work than just. Acknowledge your feelings, which people can do like mindlessly, if that, like they can name off their feeling mindlessly, but you ground into the feeling

Nicole: exactly. Why am I having these feelings? I can identify them, but like, why me? Yeah. Because you felt this before, and you felt this before in a place in time when you didn't have a lot of power and agency over your life.

And that seven year old still thinks that she doesn't have any power or that, not having, not having a seat at that table means something about her, and so when you can unpack that my 49 year old self knows that's not true. And that we're no longer there and that, perfectly fine, but she doesn't know that.

And so you have to catch it.

Nancy: Yeah, yeah. And that's a lot of times, one of, I remember a client of mine who said the most powerful thing I ever said to her was to remind herself that she's not eight years old, like to be like I'm 47. And she said she's cause I walk around like an eight year old all the time.

Absolutely.

Nicole: I can't tell you how many people were running their businesses from their 12 year old self, but actually every day, a lot are running the PTO meetings from their 12 year old. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. Or Instagramming from their 12 over their 15 year old self.

Nancy: Exactly. They're 15. I can totally see that.

Yeah. But it is such an unconscious. Thing that's playing there. And so that's what's so what has been interesting just in my own personal journey, professional, whatever personal now from professional to personal is the idea that Once I started tapping into it is about building a self loyalty. It is about acknowledging your feelings.

Then I couldn't ignore those inner kiddos anymore. Like they had to see them cause it wasn't just about thinking positive and mindset and being, all that bullshit. It was, a deeper work and that has made all the difference. But it's not easy and it's not comfortable and it's, but we spin our wheels on the thinking positive and the mindset stuff and the surface, we're just spinning our wheels at that surface level.

When dropping down into the, into what's really there is where it's.

Nicole: Yeah. And it's true. It's absolutely true what you're saying and it mindset work. It works right. It can, but you have to have done some work prior, at least in my belief is that you have to have done some work prior to allow yourself to know that there is a choice to be made.

If you have trauma operating, it is so unconscious. And it's so instantaneous you, when you think about polyvagal theory and the fact that we've decided we were safe or not, before we even put our foot all the way into our room, because our nervous system is working, at that level. How are you supposed to believe in law of attraction if you've already, if your nervous system, because of trauma has already made that up before you even have the choice to make the decision.

There's work that has to do before that. And I'm all about, claiming a positive outcome. I'm all about choosing to see something in a new light, but not at the expense of, bypassing my humanness and my emotions. And also, I don't want to tell myself that being sad.

Angry disappointed any of those things are bad things. They are a part of who we are and we get to experience all of them. So again, that we've been socialized, not to claim our full self in that includes mad, sad, glad, and when we go straight to the positive, my dear cousin, as a coach on transformational positivity, I love her.

I don't know how we both came from the same family, but I love her. And it's really all about she's like I had no interest in you and being Pollyanna. I have no interest in you being a human doormat. Positivity has nothing to do with that. If it's transformational, positivity around how you choose to see the world, because you've done your work to have agency and sovereignty over yourself.

And when did we get told to do that, right? Yeah. Let's just do that. So I love to hear what you're saying about the work that you've done, so that you can see the mindset stuff and the positivity, cause it is bullshit. It is absolute bullshit until you allow the other stuff to work first,

Nancy: because even the idea of saying reminding yourself, you're not eight years old, And you're 47 is if you haven't done the work around that, of what that really means, that's just a mindset shift that won't hold.

Nicole: Nope. We'll hold. Beause you have to trust for the stuff to work. All the law of attraction stuff you have to trust and believe that it is possible. And if you have trauma and you have a seven year old, just a wounded, no, that's not happening.

Nancy: Yeah, because you could go into the meeting and fake it, that you're a 47 year old, but that seven year old inside of you is still,

Nicole: she's calling bullshit on you and your critic gets really, your critic gets really pissed off

Nancy: .Yeah. That is that is I'm I, that I'm speechless, which doesn't happen very often. Cause I really want to it makes me so angry. The. How this industry is con is messing this up so much and the socialization piece because everyone, I, everyone I talk to is railing against this. That sucks.

That's extreme to say everyone I talked to, but a lot of people are railing against this. So even in your, so your business is you're working with helping people solve this stuff for their business. Do you. And so the people that are buying in to you have to be. Is there a level of convincing them that this is important?

Nicole: Yes and no. So I would say 80% of what I do when I speak, do you know a workshop work with clients, coaching? I don't really call it coaching, but whatever I don't know what it is. Transformational work. Is education. Okay. Because we have been so taught that what trauma is and what isn't.

And so a lot of it really does have to do with educating and shining a light on how this is different so that they can let go of the shame, guilt responsibility. The should to really allow for that even still their needs buy-in. Cause what they can see is they can see that their business has become unmanageable.

And I'm just using this as example that their life has become unmanageable, their businesses become unmanageable and no matter what they do to try and fix it, it's not quite working because. They don't have the full picture. They don't have the inner kiddo work. They haven't recognized that the experiences they had were trauma as an in fact, which requires a different lens to see it through.

They don't see that, they keep hiring employees, but they don't let them do their job. And so they end up with all the work still in their lap and a salary to cover. So they see the pain points if you want to call it that, but they still need some convincing that. It is that.

And so I'm constantly saying, that's because this was a trauma and not, a one-time experience or that was because your seven year old doesn't let his, is projecting onto this person or is triggered by this type of client or, if a constant unr aveling to help people really understand that it's not an overnight thing.

So the buy-in has to be continuous around it. It really does,

Nancy: but it would be to see the transformation in your business would be. I don't know what you're doing to me, Nicole, but I'll keep doing it because I'm seeing this transformation in my business.

Nicole: Yeah. Yep. Yep. It's you know, I've worked with people who have businesses or people who are CEOs, whomever it is when you can see that you have an inner board of directors who is making decisions about what you were doing in your career business, whatever.

And that the majority of them are under the age of 18. And that they are very concrete thinkers. When you can see that and you can attend to that piece of it and bring them on board or send them off to have a cracker or give them a job, like whatever that may be, then, everything can change.

Your situation, your relationship with your money can change. The relationship with your business can change your relationship with yourself changes. It's just very impactful, and one of the things that, I keep talking about Brené brown, cause I just finished up a cohort or dare to lead with people.

And so she's in my brain. But one of the things that she'll say is, what is the story I'm telling myself about this? And when we can do that, when we have these challenging experiences, it helps us train ourselves to see things differently and make different choices and feel a different way about ourselves.

And so it's very expansive. Once you can do this work.

Nancy: Cause I know for me, like in my business, I know I'll hire someone and then I eventually get, oh, the last time it happened, it was I held it off for longer than I normally do, but it would happen that I would end up abdicating my business to them.

So I would hire an assistant and then they would come in with some ideas and I would just be like, yeah, let's do that. Yeah, let's do that. And I would let go of the reins and let them take it. And then eventually would be mad at them. For taking the reins in the wrong direction or being too bossy or not letting me up my business, like I would turn it on them.

And I saw that happening years ago. Like I knew that's what I was doing, but it wasn't until I said to myself, wait a minute, this is a pattern from childhood that you would abdicate. You had to abdicate and get, you have to, and someone else, my dad was very domineering. He took over and that was great.

And he would tell me what to do. And it was really comfortable for me. That's a really comfortable place to be and really uncomfortable all at the same time. And so it wasn't until I really started unpacking that. And even more so than the recently when my last virtual assistant she had, she found a full-time job, so she left, but I noticed it was starting to happen.

Like I was starting to do that same pattern. And so it's just fascinating that it's more than just looking at, oh, there's the pattern. Let me change my mindset. But about, I got to go back there and unpack that and see where it starts to happen and be like, oh, there it is. You're abdicating right there.

Nicole: Was this myself with as much self-compassion as you can, right? Because it is a trauma pattern and patterns have to be disrupted and they have to be disrupted more than once. And we have to build out the new way of being right, building those new neuropathways like we've got this entrenched way of being.

It's not going to be easy or natural to move into this new way of being until awhile. And that's why unpacking this and having this knowledge about ourselves and being able to look at it in ways that are not as connected to shame and blame about this is what happened. This is the pattern it created.

This is how I've been showing up. This is how I want to show up. And these are. Kiddos. I need to get on board for that. This is a trauma I need to recognize and to do so with as much, self compassion and grace as you can, because that's, what's going to make all the difference.

Yeah. Like you just said that pattern, that you've noticed and recognized you're going to catch it sooner than next time, or you're going to put this stuff in place. So it doesn't end up being that way where you say, the final decision will always come to me, and we will discuss it, but I always get final say, and this is how we.

Operationalize that you tell them. I tell you what the final say is you tell me what you're going to do to enact, to make it happen. And then I say, yep, that works. We're on the same page. Let's go do it. Yeah. More steps, more work. And it, in the long run, it's easier.

Nancy: Yeah, because for the, it was annoying for the assistants.

Because they were like, wait a minute, you told me you changed the rules. You told me to do this. Then now all of a sudden you're mad at me like, which I could see that, but I couldn't see it. You know what I'm saying? I couldn't see the hook yeah. Where it was coming from. Yeah, and even, like the idea of when this is totally left field, but the idea of I'm always amazed.

My dad died a few years ago and the how your body can sense the trauma before you can. And so it'll be January and all start feeling goofy. And more memories of him will come in or that's when he died, and it will hit my body before it hits my mind of, oh yeah. That's what's, that's what we're feeling sad about.

Yeah,

Nicole: Our body knows. And when we ignore it or stuff, what, what happens? It shows up in our body first with illness or an injury, our bodies will not let us off the hook when it comes to processing stuff or paying attention to it. We ignore it, but our bodies are wise. And I don't know if this is a term that people call that I used to call it a sense memories because I would wake up and be in the most fallow mood and could not figure out like, what is up with this day.

And then eventually figure out, oh, that was the anniversary of my parents' divorce. I don't pay attention to those dates really. But my body's oh yeah, it's June 18th or whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of wisdom there

Nancy: there. Yeah. A ton of wisdom there. Okay. So what are your, so keeping in mind as we've lambasted the entire.

Personal growth industry.

Nicole: There's a lot of good folk up in there.

Nancy: So what are some of your tips for help for helping people find good people to work with?

Nicole: Yeah. Investigation there is a fair amount of personal development that you can do on your own. I really do believe it. Like getting into the awareness state then started to.

Get curious about where this might show up for you. There's things you can do when you're reading books, taking, watch it over or whatever that, at some point we need someone to hold space for us or hold the container for us to let go our defense as much as possible and begin to do some of that healing and transformational work.

You can't do that on your own as well, because you know how people say you can't read your own label when you're inside the jar, right? Yeah. And nor should you. If you're doing this work, you should not have to do this alone, right? Yeah. You deserve to have someone hold you and create, some safety for you to be able to relax a little bit.

People love the personal development world and I'm not opposed to what I've benefited from that a lot, but what allowed me to be able to benefit from some of it's because I had done some work in therapy first, right? And to be perfectly honest with you, a lot of people in the personal development world found one thing that worked for them and that's what they teach.

And they can't always attend to people who have something different than them, or, they were a marketer who went through some personal pain. They were someone who has a marketing background, who went through a personal transformation. And now to share that with everyone, we come to it, how we come to it.

So any aha moment I think is valuable, right? Yeah. I'm not crediting that, but I think that what comes next is who do you choose to work with? You know if you've had trauma, if you identified, Hey yeah, this was trauma. I really want you to be in, in capable hands. And so my go-to always is listen.

That is a childhood trauma. It, and I really feel like that if you should probably work with a therapist who's trauma informed. So maybe someone who maybe understands internal family systems, because that's a lot. Like this inner kiddo stuff and like the parts of yourself, that's very much like internal family systems.

And so I will tell people I'm like you deserve to have someone to support you through this. What is it that you're looking to get relief from? May not know what it is specifically, but how do you want to feel differently? Can you do this in person or do you need to do it virtually, like what works for you?

And do you need to use your insurance to help you pay for it? That's a whole different, category. And so it could, whether it's a therapist or whether it's a healer or, whether it could be a trauma. And I'm just going to say a trauma, at least the trauma informed coach. If you're going to work with a coach, please make sure that you interview them and get references and look at their work.

Make sure they've been around longer than six months. You understand that they are I trauma informed or trauma. Yeah, please. Yeah. You don't want anyone to just unpack, in your psyche, right? They can, a lot of harm can be done. So I would prefer that people start. If they've got trauma, start out with a therapist, if that's at all possible.

That's always my preference and go-to because I know they have a base skillset and licensing body, typically that's overseeing them. That will keep you safe. Like you'd be safer. Yeah. Afraid to interview the therapist. Don't be afraid to interview them and find out are you a good fit? Do you have, are you like-minded in some ways where I live here in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, it's a very conservative area is a very religious based area.

And so it is hard to find a therapist here. It's getting better, hard to find a therapist here that is not. Trained and has a platform that is very much sacred, and religious base. So if that's important to you, then you need to do some interviewing and, I always tell people I'm like people give more effort, trying on and finding the right pair of jeans and they do finding a therapist and they throw up their hands.

Say it didn't work. No, go to the next one. You deserve this. Try again. Give it three sessions before you decide, because we're not mind readers. We can't know what you need all in the 45 minute span of working with someone to get rid of minute as well. So that's a long answer to say that I really want you to.

If you can start with a trauma informed therapist, if you are recognizing that you have some kind of trauma.

Nancy: Yeah. I wanted a long answer because a lot of times, it was just like, oh, hop on psychology today, ended up blah, blah, blah. But I, but that idea of interviewing your therapist and paying attention to everything, how they respond to your emails, how they respond to the phone calls, if they are willing to be interviewed, if they're, if they're, all of that stuff just is.

Investigative work, as you said in, cause this is someone I'm going to be sharing my deepest innermost thoughts with, I need to click with them and not just abdicate to them that they know everything. And I know nothing. It needs to be a partnership.

Nicole: It absolutely needs to be a partnership. And if you keep finding fault with every single person, then, what is you, your inner critic and your resistance is railing its head and that's okay.

And you can call it out and say to the therapist, I'm having a lot of resistance, like I'm finding this thing and that thing, like it's okay. We're we don't allow ourselves to have honest conversations about this and that they are not God, they can't read your mind and that this is a partnership.

So the more honest and open you can be, which I know is hard. The better and easier it will be for them to partner with you in the healing process for you. That is, that works for you, not what worked for the client before them, or that works for everyone who read that book or whatever,

Nancy: yeah.

Thank you for giving all that information, because that's really helpful for people because I think therapy and this work just sounds, we make it somewhere. Scary and threatening than it actually is. And we need to own that. It's scary and threatening, yeah. So anything else you would want people to know? Before we close up.

Nicole: So I also want to say, I know some highly skilled coaches that are niched into one specific area that they've done a lot of work, but that this is their thing healing, the, The challenging relationship between mothers and daughters.

That's not, I just want to say, that's not to say that there aren't people in the transformational healing, coaching world that aren't doing really good work. I know people who are doing fantastic work and they have the opportunity to really help people with this one thing. Because.

They've really done all this research and they have extreme expertise in it in a way that maybe, a generalist, a social worker therapist, like myself could have a general idea of it, but not the very specific drill down knowledge, that this person has. Want to discount that there are people out there doing good work.

Just to call that out and also to say that, if you can avoid going to the yellow pages or making some kind of random choice when it comes to a therapist, the people, if you feel comfortable, your doctor, people, peers, friends, they probably have a line on a really good therapist already.

People don't talk about it. They probably do to allow your people in, to know where you're at and what you're looking for as well. Yes. And

Nancy: a lot of times the therapist, like if you're interviewing therapists, they may have, I am quick to say I don't do trauma. I am not, I don't have the inner family systems.

That is not something I've studied, but here are some names of people that I know are good. So a therapist will be able to refer you to people too, if you. That's another way of getting more information. Yeah.

Nicole: I refer people to therapists all the time. I'm like, this is not the work I do, you need to see a therapist first before we do this work together. Or you need to say the therapist while we're working on your business. Like I'm fine to partner with your therapist.

Nancy: Yeah. I appreciate, I'm glad you said that about the specific coach, coaches that are specifically in things I think.

Where I have found the danger with coaches is someone who is gone through a divorce and then said, I can heal all people in divorces and, or they've saved their marriage, quote unquote. And now they can heal all people and saving their marriage. And there needs to be more to their body of work than just their own personal trauma or.

Hardship that they've overcome, it needs to be, your additional work, and I've done additional work in Brené brown. You've done additional work in Brené Brown, having that continual education piece behind the work, I think is what's important is one of the factors that support.

I agree. Cool. No not to be slamming all coaches.

Nicole: No, but it's a highly unregulated population that really, I can wake up tomorrow morning and say, I'm a coach. It just says it's just the facts, so we have to do our due diligence around

Nancy: it. Yeah. Okay. Nicole, thank you for this awesome conversation.

I'm so glad that to jump into the, I call this jumping into the deep water. But I'm contributing to the cultural norming that this is a scary thing. Instead of just being like, this is life, we've all lived parts of our lives that have had little T traumas and we need to address them in order to keep moving forward.

It's really that simple.

Nicole: Yeah. Just claim them. We don't have to get rid of them. We just claim them, recognize them, invite them in. And sometimes we find them out the play and it's just, it's a part of who we are. Yeah. So it's a part of being human.

Nancy: Chatting with Nicole reminded me of the power of shining a light on our history with empathy and kindness.

It isn't just about looking at the bright, shiny, happy moments, but at the times that were challenging and painful. Here's what I know to be true. Looking at our past isn't about getting stuck there, engaging in blame or playing the victim. Looking at our past is about self loyalty. It's about owning where you came from and all the messiness that went with it.

It's about having kindness and empathy for our inner kiddo who did the best she could with what she had. And if we don't acknowledge her, she'll come out to play in our future. The bottom line is how can we heal our lives when we're ignoring huge parts of our past.

---

Episode 148: The Adventure of Fully Showing Up As A Human Being

In today’s episode, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency as people with High Functioning Anxiety is to do two things: 1) give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman, and 2) continually look for that easy fix.

Go big or go home. 

Dream big! 

Do big things.

That’s what all the self-help gurus and Pinterest tell us to do. But is it really the answer? 

We can all think of a time where we thought that going big—moving somewhere new, going after that new career, or buying an awesome house or car—would be the solution to all of our problems. 

Yet more often than not, we find that those big moves aren’t the answer to our inner happiness nor our problems. I’ve found in my own experience as well as working with clients that doing the inner work and facing our humanness is what we need to do first.

That’s where the true big adventure lies.

All this month, I’ve been talking about Being Human. I spoke with Tara McMullin in Episode 145 about being human in your business and with Sarah Kathleen Peck in Episode 147 about getting unstuck and out of your own way. 

In today’s episode, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency as people with High Functioning Anxiety is to do two things: 1) give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman, and 2) continually look for that easy fix.  

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our Monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings

• 3 ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman

• Why self-loyalty is the ultimate act of being human

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Years ago I was a career coach. I helped people figure out the work that would make their heart sing. That was my tagline. Find the work that makes your heart sing. Sounds wonderful. Doesn't it? I had a series of assessments and operative, certain number of sessions where I walked clients through. How to find that work and frequently we would land on something that clients wanted to explore.

Then I set them forth into the world to explore this new career and all the possible ways to achieve it. Inevitably three to six months later, I would hear from some of my clients saying, Hey, you know, can we go back and do that assessment part again? Because I loved learning about myself and taking the assessments, but I don't know if we landed on the right career.

It didn't take me long to realize there was something wrong with that's my approach. I realized by promising that I was going to help people find the work that makes their heart sing. I was setting them up to fail. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. By promising to help clients find the work that makes their heart sing. I was sending you the message that it was an instantaneous process, five short sessions, and your life can be magically changed. All your self doubt, fear, insecurities, poof. They will all be gone. And all you need to do is find that perfect match.

Sounds amazing, but that's not how it works. That's not how being human works. Nothing worthwhile is magical instantaneous or. All this month, we've been talking about being human. We've talked with Tara McMullin about being human in your business. The quest to be superhuman and getting unstuck with Sara, Kathleen Peck.

Today, I want to expand a bit on the unstuck theme and how our tendency, as people with high functioning anxiety is to do one of two things. One just give up on getting unstuck and keep swallowing the dream of being superhuman. Like I talked about in episode 1 46, or to continually look for that easy fix, we convince ourselves that there is a magical holy grail.

If only we were better people or had more time or would finally get our crap together, we could find that next big thing, discover our zone of genius and that would make everything right. To illustrate this idea. I want to share a story of a former client who came into my office sharing about the big changes she wanted to make.

She said to me, I want my life to be one of those Pinterest quotes, you know, live your big dreams, go big or go home. I feel like life is passing me by and I want to do something big with my life. I want to chase my big dreams, move to Paris and be a fashion designer. I need to shift it. For my client going big was how she was going to find the work that made her heart sing.

In reality, going big was something she was never going to do because it was just too scary. And as long as she held herself to the standard go big or go home, she was always going to be home feeling miserable and stuff. As we talked, she shared that a major regret was not finishing her degree. She was in a dead end relationship and she felt left behind by her friends who were getting married and having kids.

She was feeling lost. And when she looked online for answers, the answer was go big. The world of self-help. Full of messages about going big and dreaming big. It always makes me ask when did big get to be the line in which we measured our happiness, the world of motivational quotes talks about making big, bold decisions and taking big risks.

But is that always the way. During our work together, my client and I talked about how she defined big and how it would show up. Eventually her big dreams got clearer and it turned out they really weren't so big anymore. She didn't really want to move. She loved being close to her face. She really wanted to do graphic design, not fashion design.

And she didn't know if she really wanted to have kids or not. So over the next year, we worked on helping her speak up in a relationship which she eventually left and she started showing up in small ways in her life. She asked for what she needed. She said, no, she set better boundaries. She finished her degree in graphic design and worked for a small startup marketing company doing design.

At least that is what going big means for her dreams, Gusto and adventure, all change over time. One of the key parts of that story is that we did that work for over a year. It wasn't instant. It wasn't magical. It was intentional focused work at the end of our work together. She said to me, I feel way more adventurous now than if I had moved because showing up fully in my life is hard.

If I had moved, I would have missed out on this exciting part of my knife. Now, if I want to move, I'm not moving in search of something. I'm moving simply to see something different. Sometimes when life gets challenging and we don't know what to do next, the temptation is to blow it all up. But I wonder if at the point of thinking, maybe blowing it all up.

Isn't the answer that is when the adventure really begins. I remember in my early thirties, I too wanted to live the Pinterest. Although there was no Pinterest at that time, but I wanted to do something big with my life. I traveled to Peru with a group of strangers. I drove solo across the country twice, once to the east coast at wants to the west coast.

And finally, I decided I wanted to move to Portland, Oregon. I wanted to take my own big, bold adventure. I took a trip to visit Portland with a dear friend of mine, whom I consider to be my second mom. And as we were driving around Portland, I pointed at the back of a car and said, I can't wait until I have an Oregon license plate on my car, because then I'll be happy.

Then I will know that I have lived my big adventure. My second mom simply smiled and nodded and we kept on travel. Over time. Like my client, I realized that living my big adventure had nothing to do with moving to Portland. Although it is still one of my favorite cities, I was looking for a quick fixed.

I believe that when I moved to Portland, I would become a different person, magically. I would know how to set boundaries with family and friends, be comfortable sharing my thoughts and needs and be free of the nasty monger in my head. That was crippling. Similar to my clients who thought the answer to all their problems was by finding the perfect career that made their heart sing.

I believe that the answer to all my self doubt, fear and insecurities was to be found in Portland, Oregon, through my own therapy and lots of discussions with my close friends, I realized the adventure of Portland wasn't going to fix me. The adventure of Portland was just that an adventure. What I decided to do took more patients in time.

I decided to make another equally adventurous decision and put my move on hold to Portland and to stay in Columbus, Ohio, and show up for my life. At the time, it was a temporary decision. I stayed in Ohio and I went on a personal quest to quiet my monger, set, healthier boundaries and stop turning my back on myself and build my own self-love.

Which is why self loyalty is so important to me, it was through this process of wanting to move. I realized how loyal I was to everyone else and how I regularly discounted myself. I believed that when I moved to Portland, I would be able to wipe the slate clean and start over. And then over time I realized in Portland, I would still be me just in a different city with the same baggage.

And if I didn't start the work on myself first, I would just recreate the life I had in Columbus. As I started to build stuff, loyalty life in Columbus became easier. I wasn't as afraid to speak up for myself. I started making decisions based on my own internal values and wisdom rather than constantly checking with my external committee for validation.

Life became more rich and meaningful because I was more engaged in my life rather than jumping through hoops to make everyone else happy. Moving to Portland became less attractive. And I stayed in Columbus, met my now husband and build our life together. So a few years later, my second mom surprised me with the present.

It was an Oregon license plate. As I opened it, I smiled. And she looked at me and said, I just wanted to remind you that this license plate isn't what makes you happy? You make you happy that license plate sits in my office to remind me every day. That for me going big means fully showing up in my life.

The good, the bad and the ugly. Life continues to be full of freaking ups and downs. It isn't perfect here in Columbus and it wasn't going to be perfect in Portland, but it wasn't about where I lived. It was about who I am, where I live. Don't get me wrong. I love a good event. I love big risk-taking adrenaline pumping adventures, but somewhere along the way, we were sold a bill of goods that adventures and risks are directly correlated to being better.

People that a great life is only achieved by living great adventures, which means taking big risks and doing great things. But I'm here to argue sometimes going big means fully showing up as a human being. Being fully present and empathetic when your child comes home from a bad day, even though you have a thousand other things you need to do or telling your spouse that you're struggling and needing some time to do it, compress, holding the hand of your aging parent, looking them in the eyes and telling them how much you love them, admitting to yourself.

You can't do it all anymore and figuring out what are the small changes you need to make in order to bring more self loyalty into your. Giving yourself kindness after receiving some criticism at work, rather than your usual emo, which is to jump all over yourself, these things, they take big courage.

They take big adventure. So often our tendency is to want to fix everything right now. And we can fix things by making big sweeping changes, but that isn't how human beings make change. Everything takes time and has a ripple effect. Learning how to build self loyalty takes time. As many of you know, I have chronic arthritis and a few days ago, the pain was simply miserable.

I had pushed myself all day to stay productive and get things done. And I was standing in the kitchen struggling to make dinner and engaged in my default self-talk of come on, you could do this just a little bit more followed by. There are many people out there who have it so much worse than you be grateful.

You just have to keep pushing. And then somewhere, my biggest fan showed up and said, okay, sweet pea. Let's practice. What you preach. Talk to yourself with kindness. I took a breath and quietly said to myself, this is so freaking hard. Being in pain sucks. I am so tired of pushing and hustling through the pain.

I'm just tired. And immediately tears came to my eyes, my whole body softened. And I felt seen for the first time, rather than viewing myself as something that needed to be fixed or improved, I just gave myself kindness for where I was. This is the power of showing up for ourselves of building self loyalty of embracing our humanness.

That is such an amazing illustration of showing up and being human. We don't have to make big sweeping changes to put our lives on hold, waiting for that magical time. When we had everything figured out, it starts today with small, intentional changes, just like working with my client, small, intentional changes of checking in with yourself, knowing and living from your values and constantly recalibrating all from a place of kindness and self love.

Let's do this. Let's take back the belief that we need to make big, bold changes. Let's do something radical. Let's embrace our humanness and start making small, intentional daily changes.

---

Episode 147: How to Get Out of Your Own Way and Get What You Want

In today’s episode, I am talking with Sarah Kathleen Peck the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast about how to get out of your own way when you are stuck in insecurity and doubt.

Have you been feeling a bit stuck lately, wondering what comes next? 

Saying to yourself that there has to be more? 

If so, you’re not alone.

That’s because I’ve been asking myself these questions lately, too. I’ve noticed that whenever I’m in this place for too long, it usually means I’m looking for the “right answer.” I’m trying to find the “perfect” next step. 

I’m wrapped up in fear, doubt, and insecurity. 

Those feelings are not uncommon when you’re stuck. But when it becomes a pattern—fear, doubt, and insecurity lead to staying stuck and staying stuck leads to those feelings—that’s when getting out of your own way gets tricky. 

This month, I’m continuing this month’s theme of Being Human with Sarah Kathleen Peck. Sarah is the founder and CEO of Startup Parent and the host of The Startup Parent Podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate everyday insanity. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• There are two types of people: those who know what they want and they’re having a hard time going after it and those who are stuck and don’t know what they want

• Why we all know the answer to what comes next—we just need to get out of our own way

• What I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way

• How our culture has brainwashed us into pushing, pushing, pushing when sometimes the best thing to do is pull back

Resources mentioned:

• startuppregnant.com

• Follow Sarah and Startup Parent on Instagram

• How To Get What You Want course (use this link half off!)

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: We're human. And we are in, I think very nuanced, very contextual situations that change. We are in like peculiar habits and histories. And we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that is a challenging individual and interpersonal that collaborative work

Nancy: Lately I've been feeling stuck, stuck with the question of what comes next saying to myself.

There has to be more right whenever I'm in this place for too long, it usually means I'm looking for the quote unquote answer, trying to find the perfect next step. And I'm all wrapped up in fear, doubt and insecurity. So today on the show, I have Sarah Kathleen Peck, the founder and CEO of startup parent, and the host of the startup parent podcast, where she helps working parents try to navigate every day in sanity.

You're in for a unique treat. On this episode, Sarah turned the tables on me. And coach me through my everyday and sanity, which is exactly what I was feeling.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

We are continuing this month's theme of being human with my own humanness on display. As you were talking, Sarah spontaneously started coaching me and helping me get out of my own way. And it was incredibly helpful. Sarah is a writer, speaker startup advisor, and yoga teacher based in New York city.

She's the founder and executive director of startup pregnant, a media company, documenting the stories of women's leadership across work and family. In addition to the startup pregnant podcast, she is the host of the let's talk podcast about productivity, meaning and living well and amazing and interesting factoid.

Sarah is a 20 time all American swimmer who successfully swam the escape from Alcatraz nine separate times once wearing only a swim cap and goggles to raise $30,000 for charity. Sarah. And I talk about the two types of people. There are people who know what they want, and they're having a hard time going after it.

And there are people who are stuck and don't know what they want. The idea that we all know the answer to what comes next. We just need to get out of our own way, what I really want to do and how I keep getting in my own way and how our culture has brainwashed us into pushing when sometimes the next best thing to do is pull back.

I am so excited today to have Sarah K. Peck on the show to talk to us about being human fitting in with our theme of the month. Welcome Sarah.

Sarah: Thanks for having me so good to be here.

Nancy: So we were talking before I hit record about the fact that I have been feeling very stuck lately and for a variety of reasons.

And you had just written a wonderful blog post about that, that I had read before I hopped on. And I was like, oh my gosh, this is totally what we're talking about because I'm feeling stuck and Sarah's going to fix me. (laughter)

Sarah: I want to know what are you feeling stuck on?

Nancy: My business is going well but it's kinda like I have all this time, which is ironic considering what we were also talking about. The fact that Sarah has two kids and time is of the essence for her, but I don't have kids. And so I have some of this extra time and I'm, I want to, I'm wanting to know what I want to fill it up with next.

What's the next project I want to take on. And everything sounds every. I don't know if you have it ever have a mood like this, where nothing sounds good. Like it doesn't sound good to take the day off. It doesn't sound good to binge watch TV. It doesn't sound good to take a nap. It doesn't sound good to work.

Just everything just feels yucky.

Sarah: And what do you want like something to feel good about a direction to go? Can you tell me in your words what it is that you want?

Nancy: I love how we're doing a reverse therapy session here.

Sarah: I have to ask these questions. If you tell me a problem, we're going to go there.

Nancy: Okay Ask the question again. What do want? Is that what you said?

Sarah: What do you want,

Nancy: I want to not have such a loud, inner critic that I call a monger. I want to have to be excited about what I do, which I am, but I want, I'm struggling answering the question.

Sarah: Most people do by the way, struggle.

Nancy: Oh, that's good to know. Yeah.

Sarah: while you're thinking about it, I'll just say, so I do teach a course on getting what you want. And the hardest part of the course is figuring out what you want. I usually divide groups of people into two. There are people who know what they want and they're having a hard time going after it.

And there's people who are stuck in. They're like I don't know what I want. And I think a lot of our lives are figuring out the answers to both of those questions. What do I want next?. How do I go after it? So if you don't know. It sounds to me from knowing you for just a few minutes, that a little bit like hazy, like there's you're not satisfied, feeling a little flat, maybe about where you are like that flat, okay, I've done these things.

What's next is a question you might be asking, where should I go? What should I do? And why? Okay. But what do you think?

Nancy: I agree. I'll answer the question, but I have one other question. Do you think that people know what they really know the answer to the question they just can't get out of their own way to answer it.

Sarah: Yes, I actually do.

Nancy Yeah. Okay. So you think it's. You just have to stop all the crap to get to it.

Sarah: So my next question would be, what have you tried? What are you what are you exploring? And when you have been stuck in the past, what have you done that has worked or not worked? So then I would get into process questions around do you go on long meditative walks in the forest?

Do you interview people on the podcast? Do you talk to friends? What are your tools in your toolkit for getting unstuck? And it's fine. Again, if you have not thought about this before and not done it before, because the best thing, then we get to experiment, then we get to try not to be like, what am I going to try?

Nancy: Because I would say in a practical sense, it's between two things that I want to spread. I want to talk more about high functioning anxiety. That's what I want to do. I either want to do that in the form of writing another book, or I went to do that in the form of starting up a YouTube channel and doing videos.

What I really want is to write another book. Okay. But I have a lot of, that's a waste of time. You shouldn't be doing that. You should be doing something more productive for your business. You shouldn't be just, sitting at home, writing a book.

Sarah: Okay. And how do you feel when you say that out loud?

Nancy: I feel like that's really. Stupid is the wrong word, but that's just no, I really want to write a book. Like I wish I could just get into that position and being like, no, I really want to write a book and hold that and not waiver

Sarah: Yeah. Yeah, no, no apologies necessary.

I, I think from the outside, like what's really cool. And listeners might hear this too, is you, it's very clear what you want. You've got a want and you've got a should, and then you've got all these noises. Cause you said, I, it, people listening. She said I want to write a book and I heard you say it like four times.

I want to write a book. What I really want to do is write, I want to write a book. And the second part of that is what I want is I want to write a book without all the second guessing without all of the, those voices. My interpretation of that, and this is a. A working, living practice,

I haven't achieved, this is what I'm trying to say. But my the best way I could work with this is that when you have those voices, they are actually clues and they tell us a lot about what we want. So like those loud voices, those, I shouldn't do it at it. I should be, working on my…

all of those shoulds are those little tiny gremlins that are actually really clear clues about the things that are important to us, that we care about, that we want that maybe we don't even we don't have a good reason, like a good logical front brain reason for it. So we're scared, right?

We don't know why we want something. We just know that we want it and that our heart craves it and that it could go wildly wrong. And so it's scary. Yeah.

Nancy: The irony, and just to show everyone that even when you are an expert, doesn't mean you can get out of your own way. That's what I write about are these little gremlins characters.

I have them. So it just and I know that's what it is, but it doesn't make it any easier to get out of my own way.

Sarah: A hundred percent. Actually this is legit. Why humans need other humans? Because we are in it in psychological terms, we are reflective selves. Like we learn so much about each other by reflecting off of each other about ourselves, by reflecting off of each other.

And so the things that we teach about the things I teach about the things you teach about and the things that we're learning about doesn't mean we're immune from it. It means we're also human and we're going to go through the same doc gosh, darn thing. It's going to be just as hard for us. And yeah, we're right, right there.

Okay. So what, who I know now I'm asking you all the questions, but what do you want to write about

Nancy: I wrote a book already that is about and hopefully listeners know that is about the inner critic. The, Its call the happier approach.

It's about the monger, who is my voice for the inner critic. And then I have two other characters. One is the voice of false self-compassion, that's called the BFF. And then one is the biggest fan, which is our voice of kindness and wisdom. And I went to, and so when I wrote the book originally, I did not talk about, I really it's really concentrating on the monger, but now I'm realizing that it's that BFF, that voice of false self-compassion that has more of a play than I realized.

And so I'd like to write a book about her and how she sabotages us by make secretly and so that's what I want to write about, oh my

Sarah: God. I love this. Do you have stories already? Do you have do you have an outline? Do you have shapes? What is it, what is the feeling of wanting to write the book look like for you?

Nancy: I don't have an outline. This is what I tend to cause what I tend to do when I'm feeling stuck is the first messages you have nothing new to share. You don't know anything. And I literally can't grasp anything. Like I, like even if I sat down to write an outline, it would be blank. But when you say, how do I, like what comes up for me when I'm like, oh my gosh, this to me, this BFF piece has really been a game changer and figuring out self-doubt and getting out of my own way and recognizing that I sabotaged myself through giving my self false self-compassion and, or judging other people.

To soothe myself and I spend a lot of time in those places, not moving forward, if that makes sense. So I feel there's. When I settle myself there's a lot there.

Sarah: What's this voice, his name? Is it a persona? Like I know it's the voice of false self-compassion, but is she, does she also have she's, I'm like, who is she?

Nancy: I have a visual of her and she's, and I call her the BFF. Cause she's like your high school BFF. Who's whatever. Totally awesome. You're going to be great. And she's such a bitch. I can't believe she said that about you and let's go get, let's go get donuts or let's drink a six pack.

We'll be fine. We just need to, blow off some steam, that voice. And so I based her off of Amy Schumer. Okay. The comedian that's who the, she looks like, cause it's just like fun and up for anything the party. Not the person, Amy Schumer, but the character she plays.

And so it is that idea of whatever I want to do or that idea of whatever you do is perfect. Oh, wisdom to her voice. It's just, whatever you do is amazing. And it can cause people to stay in toxic relationships and overeat and over drink and all those things, it comes up in this book I don't want to write the book because I'm comparing myself to all these other people and my BFF is judging them for what they've written.

And therefore that makes me feel like, oh, I can't write it.,

Sarah: Oh interesting. Because you, so part of it is the I don't know what the drifting towards complacency, like they're always encouraging you to be like no, we won't do it tonight. We'll, we'll drink beer and watch a movie because.

It like everyone watches a movie on Friday night, don't work so hard. You're like, do it tomorrow kind of thing.

Nancy: yeah, you got it.

Sarah: I know that one. Yeah. So I actually I'll tell you a tiny side story. So when I was in my twenties in San Francisco everyone, this is super bowl thing.

People love football. And they were like, everyone would be like, oh, let's watch the super bowl together. And I was like, I can think of a lot of things that are fun to me and sitting, watching television is not one of them for me. And especially like drinking and overeating is not my cup of tea.

So I finally found my path towards watching the super bowl, which is that I would do a half marathon in the morning when they finally wanted to eat a lot and sit down. Because I just run 13 miles. And that was just me.. The voice that comes up in between is that I'm abnormal. I'm weird. Why can't I do things like the way that everyone else does them, why don't like everybody watches this show and they like drink some beers and they like, the advertisements, like why do you feel so fidgety and irritable, and like, why is this not fun for you? And owning that part of yourself that wants to do something else, whether it's like walking through the forest or painting your toenails or whatever it is running 13 miles. I don't do that anymore. My hips are too screwed up, but yeah. Okay. So that's part of it is the, like the complacency, the kind of like insidiousness of oh, take a break.

But then part of it is that she's a bee and she's judging people all the time. So you're afraid of being judged that way.

Nancy: Exactly. Like it's that, it's the cool girl that you want to fit in with. And so you do all these things to appease her and I, and I think, that piece that you said, which I, and that's why I talk to my clients a lot about building self loyalty is a big theme of my work, but owning that part of you that doesn't want to do what everyone says you should do, or the norm quote, unquote, whatever that means is is, that idea of constantly turning my back on who I am and what I want.

That's what I've, that's what I'm doing because in so many ways, but knowing what you're doing and doing it differently are two very different thing.

Sarah: I also think that like that, there's a reason this is all coming up for you now, because if you're going to write about this, you need the material.

And so part of this is like just document for them days, everything that comes up, like every single way the voice comes up and then, oh, there's the book, like it's going to be, it's actually in a weird way going to make writing the book easier because you're going to come up against every single word.

The voice comes in.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, that idea of slowing down and just trusting that it, everything will come as it's ready and not knowing the line. I have always struggled with knowing the line of I need to push through this versus just be patient and it will come is, has always been it's something that I think that is insidious with anxiety in general.

But we are plus the idea of mostly it's, I'm always going to push through that's what Western society teaches us. Just keep pushing. And sometimes the power comes and pulling back.

Sarah: There's so much here because, a friend of mine also is she also has a lot of anxiety. And one of the things that she has said is she's at the end of the day, I don't always know what.

To believe because you don't know which one is actually me because I trained for so long and all these other voices, like the dominant, patriarchal, oppressive of masculine hustle, culture, voice is one. And it's inside of all of us, the pay it's the Puritan work ethic. It's the idea that if you just pull yourself up by your bootstraps and work harder as an individual, you too can get anything done.

And if you haven't, it's your fault, right? That's that is smashed into us. And then there's the like gendered voices that we all have that, we could talk for hours about the ways that women are trained and cultured and the mean girls and all the different people. And it affects men too, right?

In different ways. There's gendered ways that men are affected, especially when it comes to tapping into and understanding and respecting emotions. And then we're all just left here being like, so whose voice do I believe in which one is actually. Mine,

Nancy: right? Yeah.

That's the hard part. And so for me, a lot of times, which I haven't been doing interestingly as we're talking, I was like, oh, cause for me, it is, if I could just bring in a piece of kindness even to say, oh, it just really sucks that you're struggling with this right now. That's just so hard just to be able to.

In doing that, I remind myself that I'm actually a full human being, as opposed to, I think I get stuck in this thing that I'm a machine and I can push through when I just need to keep going. But the, I, when I can give myself kindness, it's like something flips inside of me to be like, oh yeah, you are a person.

Sarah: You're not a machine. You're not a robot, no matter what's going on Silicon valley aspires to. Exactly. Yeah. There's so much of the noise of the interwebs of all the blogs and all the pseudoscience is people who dole out really bad. About arbitrary. Unreal, perfect worlds. Oh, all you need to do is have a little more willpower.

I'm sorry. Are you living in a pandemic with two small children? Trapped with them in a New York city home? Because I am, I don't think it's about willpower. I'm using my willpower not to punch a wall. (Laughter)

Nancy: Yeah. I wish we had more of that refreshing frank talk. (Laughter)

Sarah: like I did. I spent it, I used all my willpower now.

What do you want me to do? Tell me where's the willpower Beck. Is it free? Does willpower grow on trees? Thank you. Thank you.

Nancy: Yeah, that'd be great. If you could just purchase it out of a vending machine,

Sarah: but that's not how it work. And we're human and I love that you said this we're human and we are in, I think just like very nuanced, very contextual situations that change.

We are in like peculiar habits and histories. Like we have all these old, I don't know, what do they call them in in my yoga trainings coming out, but they call them samskaras, but we have all these different patterns that we've been trained in all these different voices and reconciling all of that isn't is a challenging individual.

Interpersonal that collaborative work.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, because those default patterns are strong, man. You use a well-worn path that is hard to unhook.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. It's so hard. So the questions I just asked you for people listening, by the way that we went through I'll tell you like, this is the course in a nutshell, although I have like lots of videos and little rabbit holes that I take you down to, but I ask what do you.

Now, what is it that you want? And if you don't know, how will you figure it out? The good news, if you don't, this is like the punchline. If you don't know what you want, the good news is actually that what you want is to know what yeah.

Nancy: Ah, nicely done.

Sarah: Great congratulationsr. Now our job is to figure out and the next step is how will we, what have you tried?

What have you learned? And if you're like, oh, okay. Or nothing, and I've tried nothing, it's then great. Your next 12 weeks are an experiment. I want you to try one new thing every week and we'll go from there. And then I would layer into that two more questions, which is, who is it for? And why is it so important?

Like what's behind it. What is, what are you hoping to get out of it? Whether your own personal transformation or joy, or just a simply because I want to or because there's someone, who needs to hear this and you're hoping to transform someone else's.

Nancy: Because that's, one of my big messages is you can't waste time.

And how, you're not wasting time is if you can, cause that's what struck me about your article. Yeah. The article you had on your website about being stuck is it was like, we won't know how I don't waste time as if I know what the finished product is going to be.

And I can play it all the way out and be like, oh, that'll be worth it. And you were like, we won't know that you answered that right away. Right away. You said, you won't know. And I was like, oh no. Oh,

Sarah: I know it's so disappointing. Let me just I empathize with this because it's so frustrating for me too, but let me just explain and clarify, like here's where some spirituality might come in.

For those of you that are spiritual or religious, or you believe in a higher power. But also if you're a total science geek like me, it works in all sorts of. Let's say you do have the master plan. And I don't like the word master. Let's say you do have a glorious plan and you know how it's going to play out.

And you're like, yes, this is what's going to happen. I'm going to write the book. And this is how it's going to transform people's lives. What's the point it's boring. If you've already played it out in your head and you already know everything that's going to happen, then your job becomes one of a cognitive machine where you don't get any delight or joy or serendipity or surprise.

And I think that the majority of us actually cannot fathom how many things we can do with the time we have and how much we can grow. Like we are so limited at times in our imagination, the things that we imagine are short-sighted and they're so small compared to all that we can do. And so this is where I know there are phrases.

I used to study Bible school and I don't anymore. But what are the, like what somebody who is spiritual will know, we will be listening to this. Only God knows the plans he has for you. It's like a phrase that I've heard. Other people say you cannot know the plans the universe has for you. You cannot even imagine and fathom the scope of all that you could potentially do.

And so why make a plan to try to stick to it? If you could know, it would be boring..

Nancy: I just got chills when you were saying that. I have to say because the cog in the machine like that is, what's so fascinating about it is I want to, I don't want to be a cog in the machine, obviously. I don't want to be a I don't want to be a robot, but my default pattern is to try to be a robot.

Sarah: You want to know what the certainty you're craving at some, for some reason. Yes.

Nancy: And that's but then when you're like then I would just make you robotic and I'd be like, oh yeah, I don't want to be a robot. Okay. No

Sarah: squash the joy. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah: Like part in part, like one of the, one of the characters that comes along with joy is frustration and annoyance and all in sadness and gladness and happiness, like all of the different you don't get to pick out the emotions that you want and discard the rest of them.

So if we want a life that has joy, and if we want to experience these things, we also have to experience the other yucky stuff. We have to try it and see, we got to see okay, I'm going to try to write this book. And then, three weeks later you're like, Fricking sucks. Like I don't want to live with whatever it is.

And you're like, okay, now I know I tried it like, but then underneath it, you dig past a few pages. You're like, oh my goodness. I wouldn't have known this tool was here in this book is actually about this,

Nancy: right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because it was interesting. I was just talking with a client a couple of weeks ago and she was saying how, this is such a simple example, but it's so accurate that she was driving somewhere.

And she was like, I'm going to listen to a podcast because that's what a good person does in their cars. They listen to podcasts, then they expand their mind, yeah. And then she was like, oh, but maybe I think I'm just going to listen to music. And it was just like she said, and I don’t know where I just turned on my music and she's which I never do because I always have to be productive, listening to podcasts.

And she's and I just danced in the car and it was just like this, I got out of my head. It was just this amazing 10 minute commute. And it was all I was doing was listening to music. And I'm like, yes, like that's what you're just talking about is that idea of, let me get out of being a robot and do something that's just fun for the sake of fun.

Yes. And I don't know where it's going to go, but gosh, that's hard.

Sarah: I'm talking about productivity for this mix of productivity. Yes. So like it's never all or nothing. I think being productive. Delicious and driven and efficient, like that can be wonderful. And also the last 300 to 500 years of like obsession with the industrial efficient, like the industrial complex is so overdone right now, there's more to the world than being productive, but we have all ingrained it so deeply in this Western rational, scientific culture.

And here's where I want to be a little bit. Counter-culture you, do you have more men or women listening to your show?

Nancy: I have more women.

Sarah: Okay, good. But this will be for everyone, but actually, you know what I'm going to, I'm going to edit that and take that back because the patriarchy harms everyone.

But it is how do I say this in a way that makes sense. One of the weapons of patriarchy and white supremacy, one of the weapons of power is convincing people to work as fast as they possibly can because it keeps them tired and it keeps them complacent. So if you can't breathe, if you don't have time remaining to have 10 minutes of joy to listen to music, because it's simply gives you pleasure to read a book without checking your freaking phone to do the things that you're allowed to do because you're allowed to be here right now. If you are so busy trying to chase the next thing, it actually takes your power away from you. Somebody else is controlling the power and in the culture we live in today, especially in the world of patriarchy, this harms women more than men, but it does harm everyone.

We're so stuck being busy that we don't. Yes. So this new, what did you say you can't waste time? Yeah. Yes, you can waste as much time as you need to. It's your life.

Nancy: And that's the, you know what I always constantly say to myself is who's saying it's wasting. Yeah. Like where does that?

What's the definition of wasting time versus that's right. Being productive because reading a book for your. Can be productive, right? Depending on your definition. I think

Sarah: if you tune into the feeling like really tap in and be like, why am I doing this right now? Am I doing this for my own desire and pleasure?

Or am I doing this because I should, the woman who got into the car and listened to a podcast, probably on double speed. We're not going to, we're not going to go to our grave being like, and this woman listened to half a million. These are not actually accomplishments separate from. And I think we've unlearned the joy of learning.

If you are listening to things because you are so enamored or you're so curious, or you want to be learning something, or you're just hungry, like there's such a special relationship with knowledge and information and wisdom where you at, where you are. Just crave it and be like, oh my God, but how does that work?

How does that work? Why is this well, where does that come from? I'm curious, like that kind of joy of learning is really beautiful and sometimes it leads you down a rabbit hole where you're like, okay, I'm going to learn corporate law and accounting and one variable statistics because I'm going to do it and it's not going to be that fun.

And you can shoot on yourself and be like, I'm just going to get through this. And then later on, you'll be able to dance with all of that because now the design of corporations is an art form to you because you've mastered the technique, right? Learning piano skills, maybe there's time when doing the repetitions is not that exciting to you, but you are striving towards a place of joy.

Yeah. Nobody thinks that having bleeding blisters from running the guitar chords is like a radical act of fun, but being able to play guitar for the rest of your life at a campfire whenever you want. It's pretty cool. Yeah. I don’t know. We just went, I just went down a big rabbit hole, (Laughter)

Nancy: (Laughter). No, I was just, like, oh yeah, I'm running this interview until I need to

wait a minute. Who's asking who ?!?!,

Sarah: I tripped you up because in the beginning I asked you all these questions. I was like let's get right into this. Yeah, no,

Nancy: I appreciate it. So one of the blogs that, and this is similar to what you were just talking about. One of the blogs you wrote about was because I want to, or because I don't want to are perfectly acceptable answers.

Sarah: Yeah. Have you ever lived with a three-year-old?

I actually think, I don't need to spend more time with children, regardless of whether or not you like want to have them on your own. Which, five months into a pandemic is a dubious decision. I'm kidding children if you listened to this, but regardless of whether or not you are the what's the right word owners, that's not the right.

What is that guardians, there we go as like we're parents, but also whether or not you have them yourself. I think being around children is so lovely because it teaches us so much about how to see the world and how to play. And like sometimes you see what they do and you're like, I need to be a little bit more like you, right?

The three-year-old that's no, I don't want to wear shoes today. Or like I'm wearing a purple shoe and a pink shoe and a glitter bra. And you're like great. Like you do you that can be enough of a reason. So often we're searching for external validation. And I think this is again where we give our power away.

We're looking for other people to validate choices that we already know we want to make. And over time that actually arose. Our relationship with our own as Martha Beck would say our essential self. So when I ask you something like, what do you want? If you aren't practicing, cultivating a relationship with that voice inside you that says, this seems fun.

Ooh, I want that. Let's try this. And the essential self, not the what's the word? The, for me, it's the one that eats, half a cup of fish, food, ice cream at night. It's I'm tired of just one fish food is the type of ice cream, chocolate ice cream for those listening. It's the deepest knowing the deepest desire that hunger inside of you, that's like between the bottom of your belly and all the way down to your pelvic floor.

There's a sensation it's different for different people. There's like a tingling sensation. I'm not talking about the sexual one. And it tells you like a spark. Like I want this I, and I don't know why. But I just do I have a hunger for this. I have a craving for this, and I want to, I think so many people have lost touch with that sense sensibility and it's I don't know.

It might be the most important voice that we have that we can cultivate listening to.

Nancy: Ah, yeah. I totally agree. Yeah, I saw it in myself. Yeah. And I see it in my clients. The idea of I'm feeling when it comes to feelings, I'm feeling sad. I shouldn't feel sad.

I should be grateful. There's so many things to be, or I'm feeling really frustrated with my kids right now. Why shouldn't be a good mom would not feel frustrated. And and a lot of times I'll be like, you're feeling sad, period. That's what you're feeling. It doesn't matter if it's a good thing or a bad thing, or why or what.

Is what it is. And when I was finally able to say that to myself, that's when things started shifting, because I could just be like, this is what it is.

Sarah: I have so much I could talk about here with feelings, because so two things that you said that really stand out to me, like first, when we use that should word, I shouldn't be feeling sad.

We're invalidating our own experience. We're completely denying ourselves the reality of actually you are feeling this thing. I think we're so scared of feeling those things because we haven't been given a roadmap, like how should we express and feel feelings. Most people think they're going to stick around forever.

The good news is an emotion only lasts for 90 seconds. Usually.

Nancy: that's my favorite statistic I love that.

Sarah: And for me a lot of times, they have these layers. If anyone has watched Shrek, you can be like, why can't you be like cake, cake has layers. We have layers to be like cake. So feelings of worth of layers and the ones on the top aren't necessarily all there is. And we can feel lots of different things. At the same time. We can be devastated and sad that someone has passed away and relieved that we no longer have to care for them because it was so much work.

Like you're allowed to feel both of those things at the same time. You can feel like bittersweet and you can feel angry. You can feel, I have two small children and they, I like bounce around from, oh my God, I love you so much. I want to eat you, which is such a weird feeling, but I have, I like want to eat them, which I don't understand.

But also like expletive face, like feeling like I need to buy a punching bag so I can, punch a bag. Please add an agenda. There was no harming of children involved right before or after, like none of this actually happened. But stealing is in there and You can feel lots of things at once and there are layers to them.

So sometimes for me, I feel super, super angry. Anger comes up first and if I start to express it, if I allow myself to express it, which is usually, which is hard for me because angry women, like people are not supposed to be angry. Men have more permission to be angry, punch a pillow or a scream. I get a pillow, I scream into it.

I got on my Peloton bike and I like turn the dial up as hard as it can go. After I express the anger. Usually what comes next is. I'm actually really sad and that sadness comes out and I don't know why I'm crying, but I'm crying on the bike and there's some music playing and it's usually like a sappy inspirational song, Rocky theme, I start crying.

And then I there's like a clue and I realized. Something's really hard and I'm sad. And then I'm scared is usually the next and I'm scared. I'm nervous. I am so scared about being good enough parent. I'm scared that my job won't work, I'm four years into an entrepreneurship path and we're now profitable, which is great, but it's gotta make more money.

How am I going to make that happen? All of these things COVID is driving me bonkers and I don't like that. It's is really itching my skin (laughter)

Nancy: wearing on your soul, (Laughter)

Sarah: yes! Wearing on my soul That's right. So yeah, there's like feelings, capital F we don't have a good map for how to have feelings collectively.

We're all like, pre-adolescent at best in our training for how to have feelings. Like no one taught us. This is what it looks like in your body. This is where it lives. These are the sensations, like bubbles in your stomach, feel like this. And like loose bowels might correlate to that. You get the nervous shits.

Sorry. I don't know if you're swearing.. What does that mean? Like when does that come up? We don't. We're not taught to see these as patterns and start to map them out and analyze them and be like, oh, you know what? I always get these nervous flutters. And it's always related to things that are really important to me.

And then I'm excited about maybe this is excitement and fear, and then how do I feel next? And how do I feel afterwards? And it's oh, you know what, if this is my pattern, this is my loop. It's an sorry for the confessional, but not sorry. It's like nervous shits. Then I get excited. Then I get super stinky armpits.

And I need to wear black t-shirts because I sweat through on stage, but then I feel powerful and I feel alive and I feel connected. And I feel proud of myself and I will take that Sonata every time. But yeah, I will take those four emotions at the end. If it means I've got to take them with some nervous shits and some sweaty armpits.

I'll do it.

Nancy: But it's noticing the mean, I think too back to the, not to keep bringing it back to being human, but it, because if I treat myself like a robot, I'm not going to see the patterns. If I treat myself as a human being, I can start recognizing, oh, I do this. And then I do this. And then I do this.

And it's more of a open exploratory than a rigid control all the time.

Sarah: And we get so shortsighted about fixing that specific oh, I shouldn't be feeling this way. This means that we put meaning on top of that specific feeling. And then we also. Sticks that feeling. And I actually, especially for people who deal with anxiety, I think that trying to fix a feeling sometimes causes more anxiety.

Nancy: Oh, absolutely. I think much of anxiety period is not dealing with feelings.

Sarah: That's right. That's right. And so that some things my, years of cognitive behavioral therapy have taught me or to identify the sematic, the bodily experience. So start to become a scientist and just write down everything that's happening in your anxiety.

Tingling on skin hair on end Twitch in my right eye, like tapping on my foot, like wherever it is in your body, I start to. Become really analytical about it and write it and then take notes at predictable times over the next couple of days, because you start to see these really cool story arcs that happen and how things relate to each other.

And then you can evaluate instead of clamping down and shitting on yourself, like this experience was bad. Adding that judgment on top of the observation, if we can refrain from that judgment, say, okay, Here's what I observe. Here's the story now? How do I feel about this as a holistic thing? Oh, okay. You know what?

I do want some of this to go away. Now I can go talk to someone or learn about merges and who else has dealt with it, but there's so much immediate collapsing. I feel so nervous and I get a stutter and I trip over myself and I want to vomit and all of that's bad. And therefore I should crawl into a hole and die and it's okay, slow down you.

This is myself talking. I'm not telling you what to do. They live in my head too.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. But then what I, then what we do is we'll be like, oh, I'm back to productivity. I just read this article that says, I have to get up at 5:00 AM. And I got to do these. These are what success. These are the five things successful people do before 5:00 AM or whatever.

Yes. Yes. Instead of recognizing, do I want to get up at 5:00 AM? Is that when my body works best? Is that when I have the time to do stuff or is it better for me to stay up late? That's right. And paying attention to what works for me, not just some random expert that I found an article on Facebook about

Sarah: who's be BSing their way through, in any ways, like whether or not they actually know what they're doing.

They're just posturing. Most of the time

Nancy: Yeah. Okay. Flipping subjects completely. Because we were just talking about social media. I recently stepped away from social media specifically Facebook and Instagram and shut everything down for a variety of reasons, some of it political with much of it, political with a Zuckerberg, but also just because of anxiety, it just was not serving me at all. And I'm like, I help you with anxiety. I can't be telling people to go on social media. Cause I know it's not good for anxiety. And I thought that you took a break or taking a break.

And so everyone keeps asking me, how's it going? What's happening, blah, blah, blah. So I wanted to ask you those same questions.

Sarah: I know it's I have a hard time with all or nothings. But I do try to dial it way back. I actually wrote a piece for Harvard business review about taking a social media sabbatical.

Cause they try to take one every summer for a month. I take a break. And then, in, in a regular pattern, I might take a day off every weekend. Try to leave my phone on a room for a day just to reset my body because news the media, social media phones and devices are. Very much designed to take advantage of our psychological system and our nervous system.

And there's documented evidence that, and I'm sure you've shared this with your folks as well, but there's documented evidence that like, when we sit at a computer, we don't breathe and not breathing deeply. We do breathe, but we take these shallow little sips of breath and then we hold our breath and that alone can cause anxiety.

You might not have a problem other than a computer problem. Now, please, I'm not going to diagnose you are validated. You absolutely may have a problem or an Whatever we call them diagnoses, but they can be exacerbated by not breathing. And one of the things, so in paying attention to all these patterns in my own life, some of the patterns that have come up for me include if I do 30 minutes of deep belly breathing and 30 minutes of exercise where my heart rate gets over one 40, I can keep the majority of my anxiety at bay in that I'll have a healthy, as much as I can understand.

I'm using air quotes, like normal amount of anxiety in any given day. Like I'll still fret. I'll still be stressed. I'll still be, but it doesn't seem to get so intense as to feel really bad or militating. 30 minutes of exercise, heart rate over one 40 and 30 minutes of deep belly breathing, which means I have to not be on a computer or a device.

Yeah. Walking through the forest really helps, like in an ideal world, the things that help are also talking to a friend for an hour going for a walk outside without a device, listening to music, like all of these become tools in my toolkit.

Nancy: Because you have been observing yourself

Sarah: because I've been observing myself and I've worked with a therapist now for 10 or 12 years, multiple therapists.

And so they have also been observing me and say, oh, Sarah, have you exercise lately? Screw you exactly. I know I should get on the bike. My husband will be like, Hey, you want a bike today? I'll be like, I don't bike today. Sorry about that. I'm really sorry.

Nancy: It is just like this, the last thing I want to do, even though I know it's good for me, I know I'll feel better.

Sarah: That's great. I don't need to go on a walk. There's not a bad thing,

but back to social media. So I take some breaks and I know these things about myself and I pay attention to like, how does it make me feel? And a really simple experiment you can do is okay, I'm going to get on it. How do I feel? What is the feeling that's causing me? Do I feel lonely?

Do I feel sad? Do I feel anxious? What's the instigating feeling. Okay. How long did I stay? Just glance at your clock? It's 1 54. Okay. Now you're stopping. What time is it? Two 15. You spent 20 minutes. How do you feel now? And a lot of times, like I get sucked in and I just keep scrolling and there is no end.

And then I'm ending up in that place where I'm like looking at someone else's life. Like I'm like, how did I find this high school friend from 27 years ago? Now I've learned that they've had a baby and I'm wondering what their baby name is, but I don't. And I looked up they're busy. I don't even know why I got here.

So that's what I would call like the not good for me. Social media use and. And I just pay attention up that one doesn't make me feel good, but the good news is social media and phones and devices generally are beneficial to us when we engage in one-on-one or small group activity. And so that's the part I miss the most when I take a break, is that my groups, like the people that I talk to on a regular basis to people that I message, like some of us use those platforms for specific one-on-one communication and one-on-one connection with other people is beneficial.

That's actually the best connection we can have. So for me, if I'd take a break. It needs to be a short amount of time. So I don't lose a lot of social connection or I need to proactively set up like, all right, I'm going to reach out to these 20 friends and send a calendar, or I'm going to set up 20 coffee dates with people and send a calendar invitation and talk to someone every day for an hour, because I need something to replace that habit.

I cannot willpower my way through. Just don't do it.

Nancy: right, yeah. Yeah, because that's something I really have is I've been texting people more than I would have commented. Like I would have just commented on their post on Facebook and now I'm like, oh, I'm going to really reach out to them.

But I, as you were talking, I was like, one of the things I use social media for is I will go on there to figure out what do I want? Oh, interesting. I comparing myself to other people and seeing what they're doing and getting ideas. This is what I'm telling myself, but really it, if I pay attention to how I feel, I just feel crappier.

Like it isn't helping inspire me because I'm looking outside of myself for an answer that's inside of myself. So that's partly why this is happening to me right now, this whole, what do I want? Cause I can't do my normal. Let's just go online and figure it out. Even though that doesn't work anyway. You know what I mean?

Sarah: That's right. That's right. It's so easy to see other people and they get so distracted because we think that we should want what they want. But we have to remember that what they see, what they're showing us is a fabrication, right? Yeah. It's not their real life. It's PR it's just, it's the, yeah. The happy, positive, curated, or the outreach version.

Like it's just, it's not it's most people post two things on social media, things that inspire outrage or things that are like super happy milestones and rituals,

Nancy: right? Yeah. Yeah.,

Sarah: They don't say hey I had a fight with my husband today and then I worked it out

Or did you know that mashed banana really is hard to get out of the car.

Like these riveting moments in our lives of the day to day

Nancy: . Yeah. But what's, yeah, what's been interesting is since I posted it in this forum that I'm on for small businesses and now I've become like, everyone's like, how's it going? What's happening? All this I'm going to do it too.

And I'm like, I'm not causing a social movement here. This is just something I've decided to do for me, because I do think that each person's relationship with social media is different and can make that decision themselves. But just because I say, oh, I'm taking a stand. It's been interesting to watch people be like, oh, I should take a stand too.

But I'm like, you don't need to take a stance.

Sarah: Maybe you gave them permission. They're like, oh, you know what? I actually want to try.

Nancy: Yes, totally. I hope that's the case. Cause I don't want it to be like, oh, I should do this. Cause I have a lot of, I've been thinking about it for a long time. So I have a lot of detailed arguments as to why for me, this is a good choice and I've shared this with people and they're like, oh, that's so well thought out.

I should totally agree with you, but it's your life, like you need to decide social media too. But that is for me just to, as a reminder to myself and to everyone else that list that, that conviction I had on that decision. And even when someone says like, when you're like, oh, I need it. I like it for one-on-one communication in small groups.

So I can only do it a short amount of time and I'm not an all or nothing person. If I wasn't really clear on my. Stance or how it affects me that would've wavered me. Then I would have been like, oh, maybe I need one communication too. Or I'm being overly dramatic with the all or nothing thing. So I need to stop doing that.

Like it would have caused my own guy. Yeah. Yeah. Because I've done my own dive into this particular subject. I feel solid in it. And so I don't get, I'm not wavering with every person doubting me.

Sarah: Okay. So let me get geeky here with some folks. And I'll send you the Harvard business review article.

So what I wrote was I actually did four different experiments with social media sabbaticals, and I did four different, I designed a four different ways of doing it. One of them, I blocked it from nine to four, and I only did an hour in the weekday afternoons for four to 5:00 PM. One of the, like another week.

Or another month, they only did Friday afternoons. Like I set up specific different types because I wanted to try it and see. And so my recommendation would be for people, if you're in that place, this is actually right back to where we started. This conversation is what do you want? If you don't know, then we're going to try it and see, we're going to try something. So you have arrived at a place where you're very clear about what you want, because you've done the research. You've thought about it. You've looked at your own self, you've done the inquiry. You've been examining and analyzing. You're like, okay, this is the best path. But for other people who, and they're probably happening right now, they're looking at how thoughtful and meticulous your research is.

And they're like, oh, I want to try that. Now when you try it, people listening, if you think if you try it and then you get five days in and you're like, oh, darn it. I really need to get on Facebook because I need to contact so-and-so because this is the only place I know how to find her.

That's not a failure. That is a data point where you're like, oh, fascinating. This is what I use this tool for. Or if every night at 6:00 PM, you're like, you just need a beer and a scroll. That's a data point. You're learning about yourself. Okay. This is the time of day when I really love scrolling for 45 minutes.

What if I just allowed that? What if I said, you know what? I'm going to go off social media like this, but every night at six, I get 45 minutes and ask yourself that question in the beginning. Do, how do I feel before, during, and after now, if you feel like a POS at the piece of poo, if you feel awful at the end of it, then that's another data point.

You're like, oh, every day I do the scroll for 45 and I feel awful. Huh? What could I do instead, maybe next week, what I'll try is I'm going to try asking friends to do phone calls at 6:00 PM. That's what I've been trying instead set something up where I'm going to talk to someone for an hour and then I'm going to measure again, how do I feel?

I'm such a scientist, by the way, I'm going to better again, how I feel at the end. So you don't have to get it right? Nobody has a map for your life, right? And you, if you don't know. Just do an experiment, try it and see, play around and be like, you know what? I'm going to try this week. I'm going to try that next week.

And I'm going to learn as part of the process. I

Nancy: love that. Yeah. And that applies across the board. Yeah. Not just social media, I'm saying like that you just walked us exactly through how to do an experiment, to figure out what I will tell you.

Sarah: I have a book called your life as an experiment that I've written 40,000 words of, and haven't shipped

like one of my life philosophies is try it and see, I guess I'm a little, I get a little concerned now it's my turn to be in the seat. But I'm a little afraid that I'm telling people your life is an experiment and that they're going to be like, screw you. It is not you don't know what I've lived through.

Like what a white girl thing to say. And so I'm just like sitting on it and being like, is this really. Is this essential messaging and I don't know what to call it. I might call it, try it and see, but I really do believe as you can tell people listening, do you wanna email me what you heard from this?

Please find me on my website and tell me what you think. But I want to find a way to share this message that we don't need to know the answers. And you can treat your life a little more like an experiment,

Sarah: But it is, I think for so much of our lives where we get caught in the weeds, it's just because we've got to get more done.

Nancy: But I think, I totally hear your, why you have your doubts and why you're debating it. And, I think that is across the board is something in, in a variety of ways that we need to know that because we have, even in our white supremacy systems, everything is so rigid.

And to be able to see it as an I can get out of this shackle for lack of a better word. And be freer more free. Yeah. If I view my life as an experiment and not something that's right or wrong in everything I do that's right. And everything I say I have more freedom to make mistakes and therefore make more changes in the world.

Hopefully bettering other people's lives as well with, through social justice or, just thinking even I know. Been working with DEI, doing my own work on racism and this experiment piece of it has been the key to that's right. Because if I'm not experimenting and sharing my views around stuff, I'm not making the changes.

That's right.

Sarah: And it's and, start small, come up with a hypothesis do your best to do the research and advance where you can, we're not just going to walk out there and be like, whoa, like here are all my thoughts on racism on the next brown or black or other first, because that's not effective and useful and it can be harmful, but we are going to do a lot of learning.

We being me. And let me just speak about me, do a lot of learning and say, Hey, how can I change this? What could I try? What can I try next? What can I try next? Yeah,

Nancy: I think it's a much needed resource.

Sarah: Thanks. Let me go put it together while they're sleeping in my spare time. During that time I'm not punching a wall. Exactly.

Nancy: Oh, Sarah, this has been awesome. Thank you so much for your time and your being willing to flip the interview, so to speak. And I really appreciate that and I feel so much better. Like I have to say this morning was rough for me. And after this conversation, I feel so much lighter and yeah, it's in there.

Sarah: Oh, I love hearing that. I They don't have the bandwidth to do coaching anymore. I used to do it unofficially because I just get so curious about people and I ask them questions. And so I put everything I knew into this course, it's called get what you want. And it's what we did.

This is this, so if you need a video of me, I'm not going to, if there's no flagellation, there's no I'm not going to whip you into shape. I'm going to ask you kind questions. I'm gonna ask you thoughtful questions. And people have told me that it's oh, I'm allowed to listen to myself. Whoa.

Nancy: That's awesome. I'll give you the link. So tell people where they can find you and we'll put all this stuff in the show notes, but

Sarah: just, yeah. So two places Sarah K peck.com is my personal website. I go by my middle initial because Sarah peck.com wasn't available. And I'm sometimes on Twitter.

I'm more often on Instagram at Sarah Kay. And then I have a company that I run a called startup pregnant. We are changing the name to start up parent later this fall. And it's for working parents and entrepreneurs and people running businesses that are also navigating pregnancy and parenthood and career all at the same time.

So that right now you can find us everywhere is at Serta pregnant. And then we're going to move over to startup parent.com. And we're in the process of getting all those new social handles. But if you type in, start up P probably by no go, I'll probably

Nancy: Beause I know a lot of people are, struggling before, but COVID is, as we were talking about before we hit record and said a whole new level of being a parent and running a business and working and all that stuff.

Sarah: It's so hard for so many people right now. Yeah.

Nancy: But so had their get some resources, get some support from Sarah, check out the, get what you want page.

Sarah: Yeah. www.sarahkpeck.com go to courses and you can find I've got, oh, too many. No, I'm not going to drag myself like that. I've got planned lots of courses. And one of them is called get what you want. And I'll send you the direct link to, for your peoples.

Nancy: Awesome. Awesome. Okay, great.

Thank you, Sarah. Thanks. I admit when I started this interview, I was not expecting the tables to be turned and Sarah to coach me, as we were recording, my monger was screen coming at me. What are you doing? This is your show. You're the expert. And yet I wasn't listening to that voice because underneath it was my biggest fan saying, let's go with this, who knows this might be helpful.

And isn't that what we're doing here. It isn't all about. And when I relaxed into it, I gained a lot and I hope you did too. Being human. It's messy because there's no right way. I know when I start looking for an absolute right way, I need to pull back and loosen the reins a bit. I'm writing a new book, very early stages, but I will be exploring the BFF character.

She doesn't get as much attention as the monger, but she is just as damaging.

---

Episode 146: Embracing a Life of Imperfection and Acceptance

In today’s episode, I’m talking about how to deal with our Monger who is constantly pushing us towards the impossible, and ways to embrace our humanness.

Does this sound like you? 

Your to-do list is a mile long—yet, logically, there’s no way you could complete it; you drive yourself so hard, pushing, hustling, head down working toward a goal—and beat yourself up when you don’t reach it. 

You might even sacrifice sleep and your own well-being in pursuit of this goal. 

If so, then your Monger might be running the show and holding you to an impossible superhuman standard. 

Your Monger convinces you that you have to do these things. There is no choice. You push yourself day in and day out in pursuit of a goal or fantasy version of what your life is “supposed to be”—because if you don’t attain the life your Monger is pushing you towards, then you just don’t have what it takes to be happy. 

If you gave yourself permission to pause and reflect on how your Monger holds you to these impossible standards, you might ask yourself: who set the goal I’m hustling so hard for? And if it is actually my goal, is that goal still serving me or even something I want to be pursuing? 

When we have spent our whole lives with the belief that we can be superhuman if we only hustle harder, how do we embrace a life of imperfection and acceptance?

In this week’s episode, I’m talking about how to deal with our Monger who is constantly pushing us towards the impossible and ways to embrace our humanness. 

And, if you missed last week’s episode, we kicked off this month’s conversation with Tara McMullin who shared her experiences with Being More Human in her business. Go check it out. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our Monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings

• 3 ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman

• Why self-loyalty is the ultimate act of being human

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Your monger hold you to an impossible standard. I'm continually amazed by my own monger's ability to encourage me to go beyond the bounds of time and space. Your to-do list is a mile long and logically, there is no way you could come up. And yet your monitor convinces you, that you have to, you don't have a choice.

And even though you can't bend time and magically create 27 hours in a day, you still beat yourself up for failing to finish. You drive yourself so hard, pushing, hustling, and head down, working toward a goal, sacrificing sleep and ignoring your own personal discomfort in the form of physical pains and mental anchors.

And we do it all in the pursuit of some goal or fantasy version of what our life is supposed to be. We have built our whole lives around these delusions, the idea that we are superhuman and that we need to keep going and we can't change course, you're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

If you gave yourself permission to pause and reflect on how your monger holds you to these impossible standards, you might ask yourself who set the goal I'm hustling so hard for? And if it is actually my goal is that goal still serving me or even something I want to be pursuing.

Our monger convinces us that looking around and asking questions is dangerous and scary. So she keeps serving as a task master for a goal. We might not even want to be pursuing any. And in the end, we start to believe that if we can't be the superhuman version of ourselves, that our monger has tasked us with becoming, we just don't have what it takes to be happy.

This is what I want to talk about. The simple act of being human. I want to explore the complexities and importance of just being human. Especially for those of us who swallow the lie that we have to be superhuman. Last week, we kicked off the conversation with Tara McAllen, sharing her experiences with being more human in her business.

And next week we'll be hearing from Sarah Kathleen Peck, who talks about bringing your humanness into your next project and helping you get out of your own way and try something. She even coached me through my own stuckness. In this episode, I want to talk about how our monger and our BFF keeps us in such rigid thinking that we miss the possibilities that being human brings.

Now, the benefits of being super human have been sold to us our whole lives in comic books, in movies, in fantasy novels, maybe you've dreamt of reading minds, having the power of flight or just being really smart, like Sherlock Holmes. So what's so great about being human. Here are three ways being human is more helpful than the quest to be superhuman reason.

Number one, being loyal to yourself rather than beating yourself up for feeling unmotivated. You can say wow. Feeling unmotivated is so freaking hard, especially when I have so much to do. I'm going to be gentle on myself today. What is one small thing I can start right now? And then I'm going to check in again, later.

Reason. Number two, making mistakes means trying something new and risking failure, rather than just sitting there and fear risking raising your hand in the zoom meeting to share an idea and rather than getting lost in the fact that your idea didn't get picked, noticing that your idea inspired another idea that was more on target.

Had you not risked that wouldn't have happened. Reason. Number three, being kind about your limitations, recognizing that as much as you want to be superhuman and as good as that feels, initially, it leaves you feeling tired, depleted, and anxious, knowing that you are not a good worker after three weeks.

You can do it, but pushing yourself to achieve a bunch at that point, it just isn't going to work in essence, being human is at the heart of being happier and being more peaceful. When we have spent our whole lives with the belief that we could be superhuman, if only we hustle harder, how do we embrace a life of imperfection and acceptance, especially when our mongers and BFS can actively sabotage our efforts.

Let's start with trust. Or a lack thereof. Many of my clients are slow to trust themselves, slow to trust other people, slow to trust our humanness. We trust our rules, our rigidities our schedule, our to do list our ways of doing things because those rules rigidities and ways of doing things, they keep us feeling super human.

We have learned over time that if we keep our head down and do the next thing on the list, we will feel all power. And in the past that has worked. But what if those rules rigidities and ways of doing things they're just not working anymore. What if these rigidities, aren't making us superhuman, but making us feel like crap.

What if you're tired of trying to bend to the time-space continuum? What if you're tired of being physically exhausted and stressed out, constantly working towards a nameless goal? What if you want to feel good about your. And not like you're constantly failing, no matter how hard you work, what if you want to do it differently?

And we all scream. Yes. And then we go to take action to look up, to listen to our biggest fan and design a life of acceptance and imperfection. And in swoops, our mongers saying no. You have to keep pushing. You have to keep hustling. Here's the thing with these superhuman habits, they are well-worn, they are comfortable.

They are our defaults like water running over a rock. It will always find the well-worn path. Change is hard, not just because of our default paths. Those can change one small conscious step at a time, what gets in our way more, our inability to be human, to trust that there is a different way to be wrong.

To not have the right way to not know the answer to question, to be curious and sit in the unknown that is downright terrifying for many of us, with the belief that we are superhuman. This is why we take on more than we physically can. We work mindlessly towards a task. We might not even care about. We treat ourselves as superhuman.

It's also why we know a lot about how to change. We just don't make any of the changes because being superhuman is freaking exhilarate. Especially if we only look at the praise and accolades and avoid our mental and emotional health, it is ironic. We crave less hustling, less pushing. We read and learn as much as we can about accepting ourselves and embracing our imperfections.

And then our Monger steps in to say, you'll never be able to do those things, or who do you think you are or whatever her mean, belittling go for the juggler commentary. Is that right? She convinces us that doing more accomplishing more and staying far away from those feelings that will be best. And our BFF supports her talk about the BFF as much as the monger, but she is that voice of false self-compassion.

So whenever our monger gets too loud, she jumps in to say, you're fine. No need to change. You're doing great. Or we already know this stuff. Change your attitude. Love. Yes. And be kind, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Our BFF lets us off the hook. This is her misguided attempt to protect us. She is that petulant teenager, attempting to protect us by telling us we can stop listening to everyone.

And we're fine. In fact, notice how the BFF Petula child's voice shows up. As you're listening to this very podcast, my BFF voice would probably roll her eyes and tell me to stop listening. All this already, she would whisper you might know this already, but are you implementing it in your daily life?

Because after our BFF tells us, we're awesome and amazing, and we don't need to change anything. We then returned to business as usual and the cycle repeats. So to summarize, we're tired of living with so much rigidity. We attempt to make a change. Our monger belittles us for not hustling and wasting time.

Despite our monger, we make some feeble attempt at being kind to ourselves and then our BFF steps in to tell us we're fine. And we don't need to change rinse and repeat. We went to live in a space where we were open to being human, where kindness and compassion are at the top. We're drawn to that way of thinking and yet practicing and with ourselves on a daily basis is hard and difficult.

And not a default. We have learned from our monger and BFF that in order to feel superhuman best to keep a tight control on any of that messy love stuff. It's way too inconsistent. And. And yet we are also the first to tell our loved ones and friends, all that we've learned by reading psychology, we will advise them that they should set a boundary, speak in need or be kind to themselves.

We really believe this stuff. And yet it's there's a giant hard boundary in our heads saying, Nope, that works for everyone else. But for you, you have high expectations. You need to be superhuman. You are different, but I'm here to tell you. You can't bend the time-space continuum. You can't be all things to all people.

You can't do everything on your to-do list. You can't keep plugging along. Single-mindedly towards a goal you might not even want anymore. It will wear on you physically, mentally, and emotionally, because here's the fact you are a human being. Let's start embracing that first. We have to honor this disconnect.

We have to notice the difference between what we know and what we live. I know that being kind is key. I know that giving myself a regular breaks, honoring my body, treating myself as a human being rather than a human doing are all key to my inner peace and happiness. This is why I love the idea of selfless.

Self loyalty is the ultimate act of being human. It's not turning our back on ourselves. It's being willing to dive into all that messiness and say, wow, look, what's here. Instead of yuck, look, what's here. We know how to be loyal to family and friends. We accept their flaws. In fact, we will bend ourselves like Gumby to make up for their flaws, but for ourselves, hell.

Being human is something we strive to overcome. Maybe that's why we struggle so much stepping into the unknown of being kind, honoring ourselves and practicing self loyalty are messy and imperfect. And the one thing we hate is messy and imperfect. While I was researching the idea of being human. I came across this quote by Edith Weider and American scientists.

Exploring is an innate part of being human. We're all explorers when we're born. Unfortunately it seems to get drummed out of many of us as we get older, but it's there, I think in all of us and for me, that moment of discovery is just so thrilling on any level that I think anybody that's experienced, it is pretty quickly addicted to it.

I don't have all the answers, but I do know that being an Explorer of your heart and soul is an excellent place to start and can be exhilarated. Rather than believing the lie of our monger, that we are flawed human beings who need to be whipped into shape. What if we looked at our internal world as something fun to explore a messy, abstract painting that we can look at with kindness and empathy, rather than a painting we need to redo.

So it looks perfect as we continue to explore being human this month, challenge yourself to embrace imperfection and being kind to yourself. No matter. What notice your three voices notice when your monger chimes in to say how you're broken and then how your BFF chimes in to say no, you're fine.

When you see that dynamic challenge yourself to bring in your biggest fan, that kind voice who says, okay, people let's settle down. What do you need right now? Sweepy pause for the answer and then honor it. That is the key. Honoring what comes up, being loyal to your heart's request. Maybe it is to keep hustling.

Maybe it's to get a drink of water, maybe it's to take a nap, learning to listen and honor what comes up is messy. You will do it wrong. And yet every time I finally put down the superhuman shield and embrace being human, even just a little tiny bit, life gets easy. Which is the exact opposite of what I think is going to happen this week.

Let's embrace being human one tiny activity at a time.

---

Episode 145: How Embracing Your Humanness Can Lead to More Success

In today’s episode, I am talking with Tara McMullin, podcaster, small business community leader, and speaker about how bringing her humanness into her life has made some huge shifts with her business, relationships, and mental health.

Being human is messy and imperfect—and, we’re bound to make mistakes. 

It’s part of the deal.

We’re not going to get everything right, every time. 

But we learn as we go. 

That’s what being human is all about. 

For some, being human—the messiness of it—is totally anxiety-provoking. It makes things feel harder to do and accomplish. But what if embracing your humanness could actually result in more ease and more success… with a whole lot less anxiety to boot? Is it possible?

Not only is it possible, but it is also achievable through tiny, small changes we can make to our everyday lives. And all this month, I’m going to go deep into how to embrace our humanness and discuss what it means to be human.  

Today, I’m kicking off the Being Human theme with one of my business mentors, Tara McMullin. 

We talk about how for Tara bringing her humanness into her life has made some huge shifts with her business, relationships, and mental health.

Tara is a podcaster, small business community leader, and speaker. She’s been helping small business owners find what works for them for over a decade. Tara’s goal is to push past the hype so she can better facilitate candid conversations about doing business in the New Economy.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How Tara’s quest to be more human has enhanced and enriched her life

• How hearing about High Functioning Anxiety gave Tara some real ah-ha’s

• The relationship between depression and HFA

• Tara’s morning ritual that helps her with her HFA

Resources mentioned:

• explorewhatworks.com

• The What Works Podcast

• Follow Tara on Instagram

• Follow Tara on Twitter

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Transcript:

Tara: But within that, I also had to be able to own that. I don't always get it right. And that sometimes there's more to learn. I can be of more value to people. I can create more connections to people when I share the stuff I don't get. Or when I share the questions that I'm wrestling with, or when I share, when something feels really hard and I had to recognize the credibility can come from that as well.

Nancy: Being human is just something we naturally are. We can do it without thinking planning or stressing. And yet it is something we fight against with everything we have. We don't want to be human because being human means being messy, being human means imperfection and being human. It means making mistakes.

But what if I told you and embracing your humanness can mean more? And more success with a whole lot less anxiety today. I'm talking with Tara McMullin about how her quest to be more human has enhanced and enriched her life. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. I'm kicking off this month's theme, being human with one of my business mentors, Tara McMillan. I can't tell you how excited I am for you to hear this interview. Tara is raw and real and brings all her humanness with all of its messy imperfections. Kara is a podcaster, small business community leader.

And. She's been helping small business owners find what works for them for over a decade. Her goal is to push past the hype so you can better facilitate candid conversations about doing business in the new economy. It's rare. You're here someone so openly discussed and embrace the ongoingness of their job.

We're used to hearing the typical linear story. I struggled. I changed. I persevered. What I love about this interview is Tara's ability to share the realness of the struggle. It isn't linear, it's circular. And at times frustrating Tara's podcast is called what works. And in this conversation, she shows how she embodies that concept.

When it comes to what's working with her high functioning anxiety and her ongoing journey of being. Tara. And I talk about how hearing about high functioning anxiety gave her some real ahas, depression, and high functioning anxiety and how they can work together. How her morning ritual helps her high functioning anxiety and how bringing her humanness into her life has made some real shifts with her business relationships and mental health.

Tara. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here. I'm so excited to have you.

Tara: I am excited and a little nervous to be here. Thanks for having me.

Nancy: We're just going to dive right in. Cause that's how I like to roll. I know you identify with the term high functioning anxiety. What about the term specifically speaks to you?

Tara: I think it probably would be helpful to go back to. When I first realized that I had an issue with anxiety in the first place, because the term anxiety did not use to resonate with me. I think we've had the conversation before. Ah, obviously off podcast that I had always identified as someone who suffered from depression and sort of the ups and downs of that mental health, the challenge.

And I have ever since I was at least 12 years old, probably before that. And so because depression was always something that I owned, it was part, it was part of my identity. It was something, yeah. Almost always forefront in my mind either. Hey, I feel great. Isn't it awesome that I'm not depressed right now or I'm depressed right now.

What am I doing about that? It's just something that has always been around that. Anything other than that just didn't register and it wasn't until, yeah. Literally last summer in the car with my husband, driving from Pennsylvania to Montana, which gives you a lot of time to think and process and talk about stuff that he said tell me when the last time was that you didn't feel anxious.

And I said, what are you talking about? Feel anxious. And I pause and I took a beat and I thought, and I. And at that point, I'd learned enough about anxiety to be able to identify in that moment. Finally, there's never been a time feel anxious, however and I should also say, but, I told him, no, this is just how I feel.

This is just normal. And he said, but I don't feel like that. I know plenty of people who don't feel like that, who don't, you don't act on the way they're feeling the way that you do. That's not normal that's anxiety. And it was a huge wake up. And also I think helpful in that, that I had been out of a depressive mode out of a depressive dip for quite a while.

And so I had some space away from that challenge to really think through the rest of my mental health picture.

Nancy: But like a year out of the depressive episode or like a month out of the depressive episode

Tara: It would have been a couple of years since I had felt pretty bad.

It came back last fall. That sucked. But yeah, so it's been a, it's been up and down since then, but yeah, but it was a good time, that, yeah. I think at that point, I really started to realize was that my, what I thought of as anxiety. And the way I saw that manifesting for other people was not how it manifested for me.

And then I could identify pretty quickly that what was anxiety for me was also some of the stuff in my mental health landscape that made me really productive and efficient and look like I had it. Gather. And so then when, when we started talking more with you and really dug into high functioning anxiety, it was just very obvious that it was like, oh, this manifests in a different way to, this is clearly what I am experiencing.

So that's the very long story of how I relate to that term

Nancy: So you had not done any work quote unquote, around anxiety. It had always been from the lens of depression.

Tara: Absolutely. Yes.

Nancy: And so you were either hopped up in high functioning anxiety, this now, or that was like your status quo, the high functioning anxiety over-performing

Tara yeah, I would say status quo.

Nancy: Okay. And then you would have bouts of depression, right?

Tara: Yes. And I would say that now I can look at that and say that the depression is also colored by anxiety as well. And that. Probably one of the reasons that people are surprised to find out I suffer from pretty bad depression is that my high functioning anxiety probably keeps me pretty productive when other people would be in bed all day long.

Understandably. So yeah, so I, I think that's. I can identify my high functioning anxiety, even within a depressive period as well. And yeah, for good and for bad, I think probably.

Nancy: So was that a relief when you came to this? Aha. Or was it like a dammit?

Tara: It was a dammit. Absolutely. I think, there's a certain relief in being able to label something and identify it.

But it was also like but I'm doing so well. Why do I need to like, deal with something else now? So yeah, it was a very quickly turned into a dammit moment. Okay.

Nancy: Because I appreciate, I think that is so common for people with high functioning anxiety to have your hands. Say, I don't feel like this all the time.

It was just what really, that's such a great and also that's just great to have him saying that to you like to have that voice, but also a little bit. I remember no, when my husband says it to me, it's a little jarring to be like how can you live your life and not have this intense, Feeling all the time.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. That's exactly how I feel about it. And I still even though I know what's happening, I find myself still ruminating on that too. Like, why am I the only one that cares about what time we get to this place or what the confirmation number is on the hotel or where we're going on vacation or like how the dishwasher is loaded or like all of this crap.

And I have to say, oh, he's not thinking about this, the way that I'm thinking about it. Yeah. And that's good for him that he's not thinking about these things. It doesn't make him low functioning. It doesn't mean that he doesn't care. It means that he's not ruminating on things the way I ruminate on things. I have to check myself.

Nancy: Yeah. Oh, totally. We just went camping this past weekend and my husband with my nieces and nephews and I'm like, okay. Making sure the food's already, even though the nieces and nephews were in charge of the meal, I'm the one that's boiling the noodles and teaching them how to cook and doing all the things.

And my husband's, drinking a beer, standing on the porch and I'm like, I get mad at him for being able to do that when I'm like, there's all this stuff that needs to get done. Why are you just chilling? And then recognizing I'm the only one that thinks all this stuff needs to get done. Everyone else is just camping.

Yes. I'm the one checking things off the list. So since learning about that, you have anxiety. What has changed for you? Has that changed anything in your work and your life and how you approach things?

Tara: I think I'm still at the point. With it, where I'm in the awareness phase. I've done a lot of kind of life change and mindset work and mental health work over the last few years.

And it seems to run in a few different phases where I hit that point of knowing of realization like, oh, this is what's going on. And then. Fairly long phase of just working to be aware of it instead of just letting it happen. And so I'm still very much in that phase of noticing when I'm ruminating, noticing when I'm getting angry at other people, for not thinking about things that I'm thinking about when.

Over functioning over-performing in order to exercise control, or try to exercise control over a situation and just being able to identify and acknowledge, okay, this is what's going on right now. Maybe I keep doing it because in that moment, it's the only thing I know how to do. But knowing, just knowing and holding that awareness that this is what's happening.

I think I am hopeful that as the uncertainty of this year, Maybe dissipates at some points that I will be able to take more constructive action around it, but I'm very much still in a place where this is new enough to me. And then this whole, this whole wild year is new for everybody that there's too many.

Inputs going on for me to be able, I think, to take more constructive action other than a lot of self care. Making sure, just for instance, like one of the things over the last few months that I've really had to work on is making sure that every single morning I am spending a lot of time regulating myself.

System making sure that I'm in a really good head space to face the day. And waking up early, spending two hours in some sort of movement practice, whether it's lifting weights or it's running or it's walking or yoga and just really Cree creating that space so that I have. I have more capacity to deal with.

Whatever's coming my way. That's been really helpful. But in terms of stopping it when it starts, I'm not sure there yet. Yeah.

Nancy: That's that is, yeah, you're doing great. Just for the record. So is that hard? Is it hard to get up in the morning and do that stuff or is it. Because you see the benefit of it's been easy or is it still a struggle every morning?

Tara: No, it's the best part of my day is the best part of my day. It, does it suck to wake up at 5:00 AM every day? May maybe, I'm not sleeping a whole lot right now. So that I don't feel like I'm losing out on sleep. I go to bed really early, i, I get seven, seven and a half hours of sleep every night.

I feel pretty good about that as a 37 year old woman. And yeah, w by the time I drink my coffee and eat my breakfast, I am ready to hit. I would love to say ready to hit the gym, but I'm ready to hit my little extra room. Wait stuff is or I'm ready to go for a really long walk or a long run.

And I love it. It is my time to check in with me to listen to a podcast and either learn something or process what I've been feeling through someone else's voice. And just get that time where no one is demanding anything of me, but me. So yeah, it's, it is absolutely. I won't say that it's all best time of the day, my day, but it is absolutely one of the best times of the day.

And I look forward to it every single morning.

Nancy: Nice. That's awesome. Because I know a lot of people struggle with taking that time, even when they know it's important and it helps and it feels so good. It's the idea of I'm not worthy of this time or. I've, but there I have so many clients say to me, I know if I get up early and I, blah, whatever that is.

It sets me up for the day, but getting myself to do that, and it's not even the getting up early, they may get up early, but they fill it with other stuff. It's that you have this devoted time to you is cool.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. I'm trying to think like why I don't feel more pressure to get in front of my inbox for instance, before, in that time.

But I think it is because. So I've been working out consistently for three and a half years now. And it has been a process of realizing just how much it does for me. In the beginning it was the exercise of discipline and. Routine and habit formation that did a lot for me it turned into like really optimizing for performance and like how much weight can I lift?

How much faster can I run? And that was really good for me. And now it really is the practice of self care. And recognizing that I can't do it. What I need to do the rest of the day if I don't carve out that time. And it really has in these last four months with COVID and everything that I need two hours, I need two solid hours, or I don't feel like I have the capacity to process what I need to process.

Throughout the day. So we really, it has become a non-negotiable for me. And as much as maybe I could convince myself that an extra half hour of work would be better or an extra hour of work would be better in the day. I know that if I. Collapsed that time that I wouldn't be any more productive.

Like I intellectually I can make that argument objectively. I can make that argument. There's nothing that extra half hour is going to buy me that the productivity and the capacity I get from the extra time to myself and in movement allows me in the rest of the day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. I think that whole concept, that is the whole concept of building self loyalty that I talked so much about, that you were saying, this is a non-negotiable time.

And I know even I've noticed for me, I have that. I do that a similar thing. But I was started sleeping in more and more like cutting into my time. And then my husband would get up and I'd be like mad at him for busting into my time recognizing, oh wait, I'm the one that needs to hold this time sacred by getting up earlier.

And it's the holding the time sacred, I think is the piece that's so powerful. Not because some journal told me that this is good for anxiety reduction or because I can get my workout in, but because this is just what I, this is my time. And anytime we can hold something sacred, that's a win. Yeah, absolutely.

Okay. So then the other place I want to go is, so I have been, Tara has been a mentor of mine for many years. So I have watched her from afar go through her own trends, transformation. And so I now that I have you in the hot seat, I wanted to ask you about that because as I just touched on, I think we can reduce.

Anxiety by building that self loyalty. Yeah. In watching you over the past few years, you really have embraced your humanness and taken off the I'm a professional. This is what a, an entrepreneur looks like, this is what I need to be performing. This is all my perception from afar. So tell me if I'm totally wrong about this.

And I'm just going to show up as me. And because that's where the sweet spot is. That's the stuff people want to see. And so you've really, I feel ticket a concerted effort to shut off the performance and the perfectionism, and really show up as this is Tara and I'm someone who loves to work out and I wear sweatshirts and I'm not all perfectly, done up every day and looking professional.

Makeupy. So I just was curious, is that accurate? Tell me more about that.

Tara: Yeah, so it was absolutely a concerted effort, a very intentional change that I made. And it was part of this whole process of getting clear on how I wanted to show up in the world, what mistakes I had been making that were.

And I do I don't say mistakes. Flippantly. It very, it very sincerely like things that I had done that were not helpful to me, that weren't helpful to anyone else and could have continued to do me harm and others harm had I not made a change. Yeah. I don't know if you want to get into this, but I am.

I identify very strongly as an Enneagram three. I I am very, I can see my own patterns around really caring. What other people think of me, how I present myself to the world. The visual component of it, the intellectual component of it, the leadership component of it, I very much want to be perceived as someone who has my shit together.

And someone who has not just has value in the world, but is doing something right, is really successful. And so when I think about this, I think about one of the. Big classes that I taught on creative live, which is a video learning platform where I taught for many years. And I taught a class called build a standout business. Back in 2013, I think 2014. Maybe 2015. I don't know. It was a while ago

Nancy: Wow. That's crazy. That it's been so long

Tara: . I think it was 2015. I think. I think I'm conflating some different classes I taught, but still at least five years ago. When I taught that class, like the. What I got from them was like, we're going to put all of our energy behind this.

This is you are our woman. We are so excited to have you for this class. This is going to be here. And I was like, yes. So I went out and. Spent a ton of money on the clothes that I was going to wear on this class. Because I wanted to embody the visual of what, some of what the star, small business trainer, the star, small business educator on this platform would look like.

Back at that class. And I looked great. Like these clothes were amazing. And also I don't look like me. I don't, I wasn't me. I was trying to be someone else. The last class that I taught on creative live, I literally wore a t-shirt jeans and Chuck Taylors.

And to me. It like visually represents getting more comfortable with showing up as I am owning what I have to bring to the literal stage in that case or in the metaphorical stage in life. And I can't say that I do that fully because I still have a lot of issues around self-worth and like the perception of success and all of that stuff.

Yeah. I used to use those things. As I used to conflate the perception of success with credibility. And I had to really get clear on my credibility, not coming from any particular milestone that I hit or any particular dress that I wore, how much I spent on that dress or how much money I made or how many clients I had or whatever my credibility had to come from.

Me my knowledge, my experience, my ability to work through a problem, even without, experience and any knowledge. And I had to be able to own that. But within that, I also had to be able to own that. I don't always get it right. And that sometimes there's more to learn. I can be of more value to people.

I can create more connections to people when I share the stuff I don't get. Or when I share the questions that I'm wrestling with, or when I share, when something feels really hard. And I had to recognize the credibility can come from that as well. And that I could do more good. I could actually.

I could actually be the thing I've always wanted to be. If I was willing to take off the fancy dress and put on the Chuck Taylors and own that, whether it's, in a blog post or a podcast episode, or a post that I make on Instagram or a conversation that I have with someone for a podcast. Yes, I appreciate you noticing that and it's, and it has been a very intentional slow.

Deep process of kind of unlearning how I learned to show up in the world over decades and finding a way to tap into what is true for me and owning the ups and the downs of that as a way to connect with people and as a way to better connect with myself, I think as well.

Nancy: Yeah, absolutely. Yes. That was so well said.

And being the person that's on the, who has followed you all those years and seeing that transition, as I said from afar is fascinating because I I think it was right after that. I unsubscribed from you right after the 2015 thing followed you for years, since I started my business and I started to know seven, I don't know when you came on.

In that process but then once you started being more Tara, I came back, and I think, and I say that not to be like, just to be like, yeah, it's fine. You know what, and all the people that I followed when I was following you back in the very beginning, I have unfollowed if they're still around, because I, their message hasn't changed or whatever, a thousand different reasons, but I can relate to your desire to be human and to lead from that.

Tara: It's funny you say to lead from that place too, because I think for. In that process. I thought I needed to step out of leadership to be human, to own my mistakes, to be vulnerable. And so I diminished myself. A lot in that process. So was it a learning process? Was it a growing process? Was it a process that brought people back that brought in new art?

Yes, absolutely. And I S even in that process, I still assumed I am that I was diminishing myself and that I needed to diminish myself in order to be able to pull this off. And now literally right now I am reckoning. What does it look like to keep all of that intact, but the step back up on a stage, what does it look like to be vulnerable, to share mistakes, to say I don't have it all figured out, but to say in all of that, I have something to say, I can help you let's do this together.

And I will lead you. That's a really, I don't know what that looks like yet, but that's what I'm reckoning with right now. And it's an interest. It's a really interesting problem for me to tackle in my, in this like next step of the journey for me.

Nancy: Yeah, I could totally see that.

And that's something that I reckon that I also reckon with because the number one feedback I get from my clients is, oh, it's so awesome because you're fighting this fight too. And I'm, so I want to work with you on that. And then I'm always like, and that, that is such a human response. Yeah.

I want someone who's, that's one reason I'm attracted to you. I want someone who's wrestling with the same stuff. I'm wrestling it at a higher level, I you, because you immerse yourself more in leadership and you talk with different people than I talk with, so yeah. You do know different things than I know, but you're also wrestling with the same stuff I'm wrestling with, which I, and I want that person as a mentor.

Yeah. Wrestling on a higher level, but it is uncomfortable as the leader person, as the me to be, to remind myself. Yeah, I do know more. I am higher level than my clients because I have immersed myself in this and because not, as I frequently will say to my husband, not everyone is obsessed with high-functioning anxiety and that just blows my mind, because it is where I spend all my time.

And just to remember that even that is giving something to my clients. Yes. That could leadership, but man, that voice of that idea of what we need to be a leader isn't it, is all around. Cause I think it is easier to put on the fancy clothes and go out there then to be completely one with.

The authenticity of this is me and all my vulnerability and all my, I don't have it all together. And I'm still here.

Tara: Yeah. Yeah. And especially in the space that I operate in, like here I am. T-shirt jeans, sweatshirts, hoodies, hair tied back in a ponytail kind of Instagram person next to the fancy ladies on Instagram.

Right next to the people in high heels and gorgeous dresses and perfect waves and amazing eye makeup and eyelashes. Yeah. It is very easy to discount showing up as I am. And that being enough,

Nancy: yeah. Because it being human isn't valued by the larger society. Showing up as human is not valued and.

But I think there are by the larger society, like I said, but I think it is a huge value. And I think it's an important value for the, if you have that value, it is important to be sharing it with the world because that's back to the self loyalty of that's going to show up. Yeah. What. When you say I'm going to I'm backing up here.

When you said you made a mistakes that were harmful. Do you have an example? Like not a super-intense one, but I was just curious, like you made a mistakes that were harmful by doing this separating out who you were having the performance person from, who you are.

Tara: Yeah. I think that the, one of the biggest quote, unquote, mistakes that I can just think about is, I used to have a business coaching program called quiet power strategy, which is great program.

I completely stand by it. I stand by the way. Th the vision for it. And one of the things, one of the mistakes that I made was getting. Allowing myself and even joyfully moving in the direction of being the one with the answers. And so the purpose, the vision for the program was giving people tools to coach themselves on their own business to work through what does it mean to have a brand?

What does it mean to put together a business model? What does this look like for me? How am I going to approach this? And really the whole thought process of how. Wrestle with those questions and problems as business owners. And then to do that also in a peer support environment, in small groups where you could work with other people on those things, but where the program evolved was people wanted a piece of me.

They wanted me to answer questions, me, to tell them what to do, and there's something. That's that can be really intoxicating, right? People wanting your opinion and what, your answer. And you're the expert. Tara, tell me what to do. And I will fully admit to being drunk on that a few years ago.

And at the same time, very frustrated by it and being like, how did I get here? This wasn't what I meant to build. But it took it took a process of wrestling with that. So that's one of the mistakes, because. It did impact. It impacted my business. It impacted my life. It impacted my self identity.

And I think it impacted people too. It impacted other people. And maybe saying that it did harm is going a little too far, but I look back on that and think. What harm could I have done? What did I do in that process that I didn't catch it sooner that I didn't, that I didn't change tack sooner that I didn't set expectations more clearly.

And so I have a lot of that's still something that often keeps me not, maybe not keeps me up at night, but something that I think about quite a bit. And so a lot of where I've gone over the last few years is moving away from that. And. Maybe even too far in one direction. But that's one of the mistakes that comes to mind.

Nancy: Okay. Thank you for sharing. Cause I just wanted people to be able to hear, the downside of this in a specific way. And I do think that's how we make change that, you recognize, oh my gosh, this I'm too intoxicated. On this expert thing. So I'm going to completely go into, I'm not an expert, I'm just one of you.

And then we regroup into the center, which sounds like what you're wrestling with now is what do I do? Yeah. And I think that is especially intoxicating to someone with high functioning anxiety to be the expert, because then I don't, I, my worth is answered every time I answer a question, I get up, I get a little ping of I'm worthy.

I'm worthy, which is such a win. So it's this dangerous combination. Of being an enneagram three, having the high functioning anxiety, not that you don't want me to be psychoanalyzing you on the podcast,

Tara: but having daddy issues. Yeah. Yeah it’s all there (laughter)

Nancy: I'll send you a bill when we're done. Okay. (laughter)

So how, what is changed since making, what are the benefits or what have you, in the negatives that have changed? You have noticed since making this shift to being more, bringing more Tara to the scene?

Tara: I think one of the biggest benefits is more genuinely connecting with people.

One of the things that used to frustrate me immensely was that I would. Very honestly and authentic authentically, even with such authority or share from such authority or teach from such authority that I'd get nothing back. People just be like, yeah. Yeah. Let me just tell me more, which was great.

Lots of note taking lots of nodding. Lots of whoa. Ah, Tara. That's good. But not any dialogue. And like I'm an academic at heart. I would, I crave that experience of being in the classroom and having these conversations about ideas and concepts and exploring things from different angles and seeing how things resonate with different people.

And I didn't have that. Then and now showing up in a much more human way, having a lot more openness around what I share, even when I am speaking very much from a position of leadership, I get that dialogue. I get the people. Sharing back with me, I get the connection there and the relationship building there.

And that's intoxicating in its own way. And then I think in a much more positive way. So that's one of the, that's one of the huge benefits. I think also I start to see. Sort of the teachable opportunities in a different way. I don't have to have figured something out in order to share it. I am way more free to share when I'm in process with something, what I'm struggling with, something when I've noticed something.

And I don't know what it means yet, but I think, maybe other people have had this experience too, and I want to draw people into that conversation. And so that's created a lot. Yeah. Creative freedom for me. And I think just on a much higher level as well. I don't beat that true. And it's also not true.

I want it to be true. I don't beat myself up for quote unquote failure as much, right? Like I'm more accepting of when something doesn't go the way I thought it was going to go or when something breaks and it needs to be fixed. I still struggle with it a lot, but it doesn't. Quite send me into a spiral of.

Negative self-worth or like just negating any value that I bring into the world. It doesn't change my identity as much as it used to. Because I see the value in the stumbles too. I still have a lot of work to do on that particular piece of it, but I can see how. I can see moving in the right direction with that one.

Nancy: Because I know there was a glitch that happened recently with on the, you did a forum around money and the first session had a glitch with the person being able to join. And it, it was good to you guys handled it amazingly well, and it all went to curious, but I'm curious on your, behind the scenes, in your brain.

As that glitch was happening and it took us 15 minutes or so to get re combobulated, what was that like for you?

Tara: Oh my God. It was terrible. So yeah, technology problems. Our, one of my big triggers. If there is a technology problem, I will spiral out of control really quickly. What you may not know is that we have the tech problem in that session.

And then in the next session that I was hosting the speaker did not show up.

Yes, we had a time zone issue and we had communicated that at least Eastern time she had put it in her calendar on central time is fine. We worked it out, but that one, two punch just about ruined my day.

And. I think it was, it's a huge win for me, even to be able to say that I got anywhere back on track by the end of that day. But it did take me, it took me until the final session until I felt like, all right, we're here, it's fine. And I could see, people were loving it, no one cared and it wasn't a big deal, but yeah, no technology problems just send me down a complete spiral.

Like I spiral is the best word that I have for that, because. It just, it goes out of control and I go round and around and around and around until it either gets fixed or, we reschedule or whatever it might be, whatever the next step is. And it will take me hours and hours to shake that field.

Nancy: Because that was interesting to observe because I just knowing you, I knew you were spinning out on it, but also being a participant was just like no big deal, like it wasn't, you guys handled it. You moved us all to the next place. Like it, it seems. Stressful for you, but relatively like whatever on my end.

And so I always find those fascinating when I knew in your brain, that was, it was not a whatever experience,

Tara: Not it wasn’t. (laughter) And maybe thanks to high functioning anxiety, I think really fast on my feet. I just always think really fast. So we did not have a specified plan B I think in the future, we will have a specified plan B, but It was very easy for me to know what to do next, but yeah, no, that was rough.

Nancy: But I think too, that idea of when I can recognize I'm going to be human and I'm going to wrap us up here when I can recognize that I'm being human. Like you were in that. That's what was so wonderful about that session was the humanness about it. You were human about it. And Shannon you're the technical runner person was human about it and Jacare the speaker was human about it.

And then everyone was like, now, here we go. Like we messed up. Here we go. And I think when we can have that idea of I'm being human, we can recognize where we messed up. We can make necessary things and then we can move forward. Next time. Now we're going to have a bucket. Now we're going to have a plan B all the time.

Cause we're not doing this again. And so being able to recognize that, I think is the power in being human versus getting so caught up in the performance? Yeah. Yeah, totally. Not saying it's easy or, but I think it is it is a worthy goal and I really appreciate you coming on and.

And sharing some concrete examples of how this has shown up for you and the struggle it continues to be, but the victories you are having because of it. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Tara: It's been quite a journey and it's the journey continues and who knows what will happen next year in 2020 that could bring it be another step on the journey.

I appreciate the chance to talk about it.

Nancy: Has it been helpful to talk about, I'm just curious, and this may not make it on the podcast. Has it been helpful to talk about it in this vein, in this lens? Or you think about it like this all the time? This wasn't a new lens?

Tara: That's a good question. I think just because I think we have been working with you long enough now I have started to think about it through this lens on a regular basis.

Yeah, these are actually like the conversation around the dresses that I bought for that one creative live class versus wearing jeans. And then my last creative live class was a conversation that Sean and I had a couple of nights ago. So yeah. And honestly, I think probably even more than me thinking about it through this lens, he's thinking about it through this lens and then grilling me.

So it's really just like I'm talking to him right now.

Nancy: It was classic. I said to him the other night, my husband and I were talking about something in my mom and I, my mom, I have a habit of putting my monger on. So it's coming from him and and he turned to me and he goes, this is your monger. I'm not talking with you about this.

And he just turned on the TV and totally shut me down. And I was a little bit like what's that? I was like, he's right. Why are we headed down this path? And then I'm like, oh my God, I have trained him to. He knows my stuff too. Now he's calling me out on it.

Tara: Yeah. Because I feel like I'm starting to suffer from that problem too.

Nancy: Okay, Tara, thank you for your time and your honesty and your sharing, your journey and being the marketer. Absolutely. Thank you. Tell people where they could find out more information about what it is you're doing. Yeah,

Tara: so I'm the easiest place to find me is@explorewhatworks.com. You can find the, what works podcast there and you can find our community there and all the things that we're doing our newsletter.

And then if you're interested in podcasting yellow house.media is the website for our podcast production agent.

Nancy: And if you don't already know yellow house media is who does my podcast as well. So that is how I've gotten to experience more joy with Tara and Sean. Yeah. Okay. Thanks Tara. Being human is an ongoing journey and surrounding ourselves with people who are also struggling to show up more fully, despite their monger telling them they need to fit in is key.

It's so helpful to hear Tara story and to recognize we aren't alone. Business leaders, mentors, parents, friends are all struggling with mongers. And self-doubt, I recently heard a quote that said, never assume you're the only one in the room who has self doubt. That is what I kept hearing during this interview.

We are all struggling with self doubt. Even if we have mastered a calm, cool exterior, and we can all make changes, small, tiny ways to check in with ourselves and make sure we are listening to our own wisdom before heading out into the world to see what we should be.

---

Episode 144: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 2

In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.

There is so much pressure to be the perfect parent. 

My clients tell me all the time that they consistently feel they have to be “perfect” and be all the things to their children. That anxiety infiltrates everything they do—and that anxiety can also impact their children. 

One thing we can do to decrease not only our own anxiety but our kids’ anxiety, too, is by being honest about what we have time for, what our expectations are, and own up when we fail. It’s important not only for our children but also for ourselves. 

This week, I’m continuing my interview with parenting expert and coach, Renee Mattson about anxiety in children and how as parents we can help raise our kids with more resiliency and less anxiety.

If you missed it, I highly recommend listening to part one where Renee shared helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your children and why clear boundaries, empathy and compassion are so important. 

Renee is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. She’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why it’s so important to follow your gut as a parent

• Creative ways to support our kids without accommodating them

• How to solve the ultimate problem: wanting to spend as much time with your children but not having any time

• Why putting your children ahead of your marriage can lead to increased anxiety

Resources mentioned:

• Child In Bloom

• Child In Bloom on Facebook

• Atlantic Article: What Happened to American Childhood?

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Renee: I think we're so busy reading and looking up things and watching our friends, what they're doing with their kids and thinking I have to be just like them and In your little house in your little community, in your little world, making it right for your kid to function so he can leave your house and be a good little citizen and survive this week.

Nancy: I'm continuing my interview with Renee Mattson, parenting expert and coach. We are discussing anxiety and children. If you miss part one, I encourage you to listen to episode 1 43. First one thing Renee talked about in part one was recognizing that we as parents need to talk our kids through the anxiety, but not in the anxious moment, which is what we tend to do.

We need to be helping our kids through anxiety in the moments when all is good. Which is also very true of ourselves. We need to be building skills around anxiety and the times when everything is fine, not just when we're feeling anxious, you're listening to the half year approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle cheap at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. We continue our conversation about anxiety in children and how as parents, we can help raise our kids with more resiliency and less anxiety. In part two, we dive into why it is so important to follow your gut as a parent creative ways to support our kids without accommodating.

How to solve the ultimate problem, a lack of time and wanting to spend as much time with our children, but not having the time to do and putting your children ahead of your marriage and how that can lead to increased anxiety. You shared with me that when your oldest daughter who she's 19?

Renee: 19, now

Nancy: your mom said to you, oh, just throw those damn books away.

I refuse to let you raise this baby in the age of anxiety, the books, can't tell you what you already know what to do. What did she mean by that? And how did that influence your parenting?

Renee: Definitely influenced it. And at the same time, I had a pediatrician that told me almost the exact same words that you can do this.

You could give her ice cream every day. You could never give her ice cream and she's going to be fine. Just follow your gut. You could nurse her for zero days. You could nurse her for four days. For four years. She's gonna be fine. Follow your gut. I was like, oh, I have a gut. I I don't think that anybody really says that to moms.

Like you've got this natural instinct. And you and the natural instinct goes. And that's what my mom, I think was trying to say is just follow the child, follow her, look at her, see her, hear her and get to know her because your nose is in this phone. We didn't have a phone by the way, when I was raising him, he, we didn't have phones.

But what I'm trying to say to moms is your nose is so busy. Phone reading up on all the ways to be a parent that you're not looking at this little person. Who's trying to tell you how to be a parent. Trying to know you. Look, watch me, follow me, see me, look me in the eye, hear me know me. And put that book or phone away.

Now, obviously I'm talking to parents, so then that's like the whole but what I mean by that is you're going to hear things that I say or Nancy says, or. John Roseman says or love and logic says, or whatever parenting book you read says, and you're going to your guts going to go. Ooh, that, that goes with me.

That really helps. That goes with what, how I see the world that helps me to figure out what I, my system's going to be. And my system will not be what my neighbor's system. We are going to parent differently because my husband's different. My background's different. My child's different. So I'll give you an example with Evie.

So they're our daughter, so she's the baby. And I don't tells me that. I'm like, okay, I don't have to be perfect. I don't have to read every single thing that really helped me to like, almost cut the cut. Perfection thing, cause I have a perfectionist, so you don't have to be, I don't know what I'm doing.

You didn't either just don't eat all the books like, and so that helped me because I could have read a thousand bucks on it. So I just kept reading of course, because I can't help it, but I would just start to read only a page, just open up the book and read a little bit and Ooh, I like that idea or that it'll give you an example with Evie.

She was when she was little. And we would go to play group and all of these moms were there and we'd walk in and there were loud and noisy. And Evie was between my legs and under, like under me, like literally hiding, super shy. She's a girl like in her preschool picture had her Lammy over her face in the picture, just no attention.

I do not want you paying attention to me. And I don't want, she's still that way. In college but I was trying to fit her in to what the world was saying. You're supposed to do. You're supposed to go to playgroup and you're supposed to go do this. And I knew it was a teacher. She needs social skills.

So I had to find a balance between what the world is telling me what's wrong with her. I literally had a mom in the group say, does she talk. Does she even talk? I've never heard her talk and think, she talks a little bit time at home and she's here and she's like overwhelmed by you guys talking.

So in that moment I realized, wait a minute, this isn't working for her. Like I got to follow my gut in her gut. And so we started going early. I would always call a little bit early if that's okay. And I told the mom, I had to be honest, I had to name it like every just does better if I get there early.

Settled she's in that when you, when all the kids are walking into the house at one time overload on the social anxiety for the two year old. So we would get early, she'd start playing. And one by one, her friends are coming in and she's feeling way more comfortable. I my stress went down because as soon as her anxiety is up, my anxiety is up and I was like, Ooh, I'm so much nicer when I'm walking in with the whole crowd, because I probably have the same thing she does.

So with that, but I hope that I had to follow my gut and hers. I had to follow the child, not pretend to make her be like everybody else's and do what she needed, not what I needed. Sometimes go. Two. I just wait until they all, if I couldn't get there early, I'd be like, we're just going to go really well and come in once they're all settled.

And then she's the one person walking in. That makes sense. But that's the deal is that you don't have to do what everybody else is doing. Follow your gut and follow the function because you want to have fun and you want to function like Evie needs to function it, social groups. I needed her to do that.

Like I'm not going to keep her home. I

Nancy: Cause that's what was thinking. It would be the accommodating thing.

Renee: . No, we're going to playgroup. We're just going to go to playgroup, which is power. We might get following her guts. No one told me how to do it. I just felt like this isn't working.

And when I got called on it by a friend that said, what's wrong with her, I was like, nothing's wrong with her? But it made me my gut talk louder. I think so. I think so busy reading and looking up things and watching our friends, what they're doing with their kids and thinking I have to be just like them and no in your little house, in your little community, in your little world, making it right for your kid to function so he can leave your house and be a good little citizen and survive.

Nancy: Okay. Now, did you talk to her before you would leave? She was only two. So

Renee: I know she got overwhelmed by the kids' behaviors. Honestly. Now I can look back as later in her life, it'd be like, mommy, they were really loud. They yelled, things like that will be.

When she started to talk, I knew what it was. And she was just like, whoa. Like my kids being kids, we used to say she's more mature than we are. Even as a baby. Oh, she's more mature than her mom and dad are. So I think that might've been what it was that she was just looking at them. Like, why are these children acting like children?

So we might like on the way home and be like, yeah, did you see them scream at the, like I might talk about how it went. How did that made you feel as she got older? Definitely. What I remember being in the car with her and her baby brother Mick later and saying, talking to them after a social situation or before I don't remember drawing.

I did not draw it out for her

Nancy: . Okay. Yeah. Because I like that addition because I would say one thing, and I've talked about this before in the podcast, my mom gave me a ton of strategies for dealing with my anxiety. Like that one, come late or go early. And I still do that to this day, but she never talked to me how she was.

She was only on the strategies. She wasn't on my feelings around it. So she never normalized it for me that this is okay that you need this. It was just like, you're a little goofy. And so here's what you need to do to survive it. She never said those words, it's we're a little socially awkward in this family, and this is what we do to get around that instead of normalizing the anxiety or the feeling, or, that I was okay needing these ways of doing it

Renee: . I think that Toby, my husband and I, we both. Anxiety walking around with mild to moderate anxiety and talk about it ourselves. Maybe we can't help it talk about it. Like the other day I literally said to our whole family because had been together so much, I was like, I'm taking my lunch and I'm going in the other room and eating by myself.

My body's telling me that's what I need right now. So we might openly, we've been doing that for years. So that's just a natural way. We talk around the house. I'll get Peter's our youngest. And he, when he was. Waiting for the school bus was a very anxious time for him. I would say, buddy, I can tell you got your worries.

Get through worries. No big deal. We got to run in place. We got to throw the ball. We got to do something. He would be, you asked me a lot of questions about things like when what's it going to be like riding the best mommy. This is before kindergarten. What's it going to look like? And I'll never forget.

I do have that piece of paper someplace. I literally put a piece of paper down and drew here. And here's the school and here's your friend Peyton's house and here's this guy's house and here's the, and they're going to stop by all the tests and pick them up and they're going to get on the bus. And then there's Mrs.

Blank, your teacher, and she's going to be there and she's going to walk you in and that's oh, okay. Like he, we talked out loud about all this stuff to him. He needed to see it. It like we do have these adult conversations. Plus he had older brothers and sisters are like, oh, Peter, it'll be fine on the bus.

It'll be this deal. This is what's going to happen. And he's I'm not picturing, I don't know what you're talking about. But as soon as I drew that picture, he's oh, I feel safe. I know where I'm going to.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I'd love that piece of paper idea. A, because it helps, they don't have to make eye contact with you.

I think that's brilliant, but also because it's just, it relaxes both of you and you've come into the moment.

Renee: It's not you. It's not you. It's not me. It's just this thing. It's just a scene in a story. I really don't want my kids or the kids I work with to ever feel like it's you, this is who you are.

It's like a thing. You've got a thousand things. That's why I drive that circle with the parents. Let's write out, oh, there's so many cool things about this kid. And you're going to bump against the world a couple of times. Yes.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. So we had But also I've been talking about it. And one thing I wanted to cover was, the time again, we're back to the time crunch.

And then the parents, the working parents and then the kids at daycare, the parents bring them home and they got, or school or whatever. And then there's the three hour, two hour rush to do dinner, homework, get them to bed and everything gets. Messed up because they want to spend as much time with the kid and to have the kid be as happy as possible because they haven't had enough time with them.

What are your thoughts on that?

Renee: So here's the deal when we said you have to be I say this all the time, so maybe I didn't say it, but I didn't feel like I said, you have to be a teacher. You are not just. So you're like, oh yeah, I got the memo. We're teaching now right now. But before this happened and for forever, you're a teacher.

So just you need to make them dinner. Even if you're a working mom and you only had two hours with them at night, you're not going to forget dinner. Most of them don't forget to give them a bath. You're not going to forget to pack their lunch the next day.

You're not going to forget to give them breakfast in the morning or put them to sleep. You cannot forget that you're a teacher and that you have to carve out the most important time to connect connect, connect four. They need your. Eye ear to ear, body to body. I need you to see me. Mommy, hear me, look me in the eye.

And even if I'm 15 years old, I need you to connect with me, even if it's your punched me on the shoulder and go, Hey, dude, I need you to know me. And if you're so busy, too busy to teach, you're too busy. Ah, if you're too busy to connect four times more than you're correcting, you're too busy. If you're, if you are connecting and you're too busy to correct, you're too busy because that's your job.

And I hate to say that maybe I'll get in trouble for saying this, but I don't care what your job is. I don't care if you're a neurosurgeon or a you're going to go. You're Jane Goodall. I don't care. You are going. This is the most important job you'll ever have. And obviously that's why I do this because I care deeply about it.

So it is more important than anything. And if you will, it will bite you. If you don't, it will come back to bite you. If you're doing too much connection, cause you just can't bear to correct him. If you're doing too much correction, because you don't have time to connect with him. If you're doing too much.

Like distancing yourself from them because you're so busy with work. It's just it's or whatever it is that you've got to carve it out, you have to teach him and you have to model and you have to practice. So I have a working mom, a great working moms story. I can tell you if you want me to. Yeah.

Three kids, they have three kids, they have twins. And then an older daughter, twin girls, and an older daughter loved this family. Both working hardworking people, they get, have to get the kids off to daycare in the morning and get them home at night. And it's so stressful. I know they're stressed out, but they have to do it and they are doing it, but they called me and they want me to come to our house and help us.

Cause we're struggling. They're having a hard time over dinner. So they, we met and we walked through the dinner routine. So they were just really open to we, this is us. We have to do. Like my mom and dad, aren't going to come in here and teach them how to do this. Like the grandparents, the babysitter at school is not going to do this.

The daycare is not going to do it. We got to do this. One of the things that they're really struggling with is they got to go to the store on the weekend. Cause they don't have time during the week to go to the store. So they go to target every Sunday. And the three little girls are a total mess, a target, like it's horrible, it's exhausting.

And the mom hates it and dreads it. So we talked it through and I said, so it looks like this is a problem. It's a thing. It's one of those dots on the circle. That's bumping up against the world. You got to get girls that can function at the store. You gotta go to the store. So we said, we need to teach it outside of the moment.

You need to model it and you need to practice how we behave in a store. And then we're going to go pro when we're going to go in there and we're going to. So at night time, play time, connection time after work between dinner and bedtime, let's play grocery store. Let's literally get the little cart and put the baby downs in it and let's talk it through.

Let's walk it through. Let's go through this about how do we behave at the store. Let's draw even rules and put them on the store so we can talk about those. Of how we behave, what are the go behaviors at the store? So they did that at night and then I told them, you need to practice, but you can't take all three of them to practice because they don't know the skills yet.

So you need to take one and your husband can stay at home with the other two at a time. And literally. Being a skill. If you're going to teach them how to tie their shoes, you wouldn't teach them all three to tie their shoes. At the same time, you would take one at a time. So you're going to take them into that store.

And my mom, if she heard me saying this, get whatever, get them in the cart and take them to the stupid store and think about them. If you did it, like she would never say what I'm saying, she'd be like, come on when you're going to do this, but it's a skill they're not mastering it. Put them in a situation where they can, you've taught it to him.

You've modeled it. Now you've got to practice it. And then you've got to praise and specifically praise. Wow. You were mad. You wanted that toy and you started to scream, but you didn't practice the recovery, practice the growth. Then you're going to weave in, bring in the other one, teach her, then teach the other, then bring two at a time.

Then through time, I don't see. But that changed their life. Not because the store changed their life, but they realized when something comes up, we have a tactic. Now we seek outside of the moment when the next one's upset about something, we gotta teach it, set up the rules. Model it, practice it, come up with the consequences, next steps, positive consequences, negative consequences.

And we got to follow through every time

Nancy and the whole time you're talking, like I am, I'm just thinking this is true for adults. This is true for adults. This is, like all of this stuff, anytime you're learning something new. Yeah. Even the stuff I teach my people about self loyalty and it's all about practice and putting yourself in different situations and trying it and patience, and it takes time and, not doing it in the moment where you're super stressed.

Like it's just fascinating. How it, how I think so much of what I do is because parents didn't do it.

Renee: And it goes back to the whole and they might not have done it because of what you asked me first is that they were too nervous to walk through that. You know what I mean?

To feel that feeling in the stores, it's easier to leave the store or it's easier just to give them whatever they want us to be quiet in the store. Rather than to stop and honestly, in the store, what I might've done is just be like, we'll stop. We'll stop. I'll move the car right up to the front cart, up to the front.

We'll just wait. I'm good. I've been five. I don't have to. And so I can just hang out here. Maybe I'll buy myself a coffee and I'll just wait until we're ready to go back. So it's a, maybe a halfway immediate medium between my mom and what they would have done what I taught these other people to do, but yes, cause that's my gut.

How I might parent anyways, I think the time part for those families that work so hard as you have they realized they had to. Out. They had to say, this is that important, as important as soccer practice and piano practice. And they were getting into that we need to put them inside or, science cloud afterschool, and this afterschool and this.

So they were like giving themselves less time. This is way more important than science club, way more important than piano lessons and making sure I'm up to par with all my neighbor's kids. No, you got to get them to go to Tara.

Nancy: Totally. That's 1 0 1. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because I do think that no, I totally agree with you that, I love how you were like your parents that's your job and this is why you signed up for this and you're teaching them.

And in, I think we're like it, you have to make a choice. And I think that's, so that isn't said enough in our culture, it's always here's a hack and here's how to do it differently. And here's, I could teach you how to do two hours of amazing things in two hours. And you're like, no, I really can't.

You got to make the time. And I think that's, what's really powerful. And one of the reasons I, I actively chose not to have kids is because I knew being a parent would consume me and I didn't want that. And so I think it can fall both ways,

Renee: I just think also too. I really think anybody can do it, so I know you could have, you've been awesome parent.

I'm saying like, literally anybody can do that.

Nancy: Yes. I didn't want to spend my, I selfishly didn't want my aim. One could argue with selfishly or not. I didn't want to put my time into. A parent.

Renee: I'm saying that because I feel like a lot of parents are like, maybe I shouldn't do this.

Maybe I'm not cut out for that. Maybe I should never have been a mom. I don't know what to do. You know what to do? You're the teacher, you know what you like, what you don't like, you got to teach what you don't like a new thing to replace them. That's it. And it's a pretty clear cut system actually, when I go and speak to groups, it's so interesting.

I don't know if it's a bad girl thing or whack, but people who, a lot of men, like what I say, I think, and they like give me a system and an order. Oh, I do this okay, clear cut. Then if you're a systematic woman, you might do the same thing. You want, give me a order to this, put it in a system in a sense.

Nancy: it's very clear which I think is cool. Okay. So my last question to you is I see this all the time in my practice as well is the trend of sacrificing couple times. For the good of the kids. And I know that is something that I really valued growing up, that my parents were together. They went on date nights. They always picked each other over us. I know that, like they were

Renee: I know what you were about to say, “I know that sounds bad. “

Nancy: I was going to, yes. I was going to be like, no, that sounds bad. But they did. And I found comfort in that

Renee: It's not bad.

I think it's so good. What you just said, you felt comfortable, right? You felt safe, like it put border to the family, like that's them first, then us. And the kids just want order. They just want to know the hierarchy. They just want to know what's going on here. Who's in charge. Makes me feel safe that you guys like each other enough to leave us at home with a babysitter or whatever.

We're the same. I grew up, my parents are in your parents are the same age, same generation. I mean they're so that generation over age. So there's 80. Now. I know that grandparents now may not have done that, but our, my parents did the same thing. They were best friends. And I'll tell you what, if they're going on a three-week trip or a one week trip or a weekend trip who cares what the kids thought about it we're going because they knew they hadn't take care of them.

I'm telling you that is so crucial to this. It's crucial. I don't I, the parents I work with that are tagged team. Where they say, ah, you're on, I'm off. Like it's Saturday morning. You've been gone all week at work. I get to go out for the whole day. You take care of the kids, so we don't ever see each other.

So it's you're on, I'm on, you're on, I'm on. The kids get total attention all the time. Bad whammy, if that makes sense, because on, does that make sense? There's all, they're always getting undivided attention. The child gets exactly what they need and want. There is no suffering. There's no but I don't like this situation and I need to survive it.

So there's none of that. Cause give him what he wants. I'm leaving. Make sure he gets what he wants. So that's the first thing. And if there is any downtime, it becomes maybe the only thing that's downtime is the screen, which is another whole conversation. But but then there's the thing of it is that we're in this together.

Like mom and dad make decisions together. We're on the same page, us we're on the same page. A lot of the families I work with do some flip, a lot of flip-flopping. So one parents over here, or one parents over here. Scope of parenting and parenting this way. He's parenting that way. And then they're doing a lot of this, but see us where United front we're right in the middle balanced teaching modeling, practicing.

Now see us going out to dinner so we can talk about it. And we'll see you later, re like us to break away from this. Whether it be, we just go and talk about whatever we want to, or we're actually going to talk about our. And what we want and what we want this to be. And we have a plan in the system and an order we'd like each other enough to do that.

And it's more important than hanging out with them.

Nancy: Yeah. And that then, and also then when it comes to the babysitter thing, because I remember behaving being left with the babysitter. But they walked me through that. Mom and dad would be like, I know you don't like this, but this is what we're doing.

And you have your brothers and let you know, they'll entertain you. And this is how this is going to work there, obviously on record parent, my parents did not coddle me.

Nancy: There was no it's okay. To be scared. It was just a hang onto your head. Get over it. Hang on to your brothers suffer.

You'll be okay. We'll be home. And we'll give you a kiss when we get there and you'll see us in the morning. But it was suffering. I suffered,

Renee: it was okay. I told my husband. Recently, I don't know why it came to me because my parents did go away a lot. They'd travel. I remembered I actually might cry as an adult about it.

That's how much I remember it, but I remember laying in my bed and hearing them zipping up their suitcases at five in the morning and being very sad. Being very sad that they were leaving, but knowing that they will come back, does that like the whole and then as a kid, I may not understand it, but I can now as adult go, they loved each other.

They still love each other more than me. Which is good they're together. And we're not like exactly. I, my own life. And I didn't want to move home after college because they didn't make me feel like I needed to move home after college to make the family. They were complete without.

. So it's so crucial as I'm getting towards the empty nest, I'm like moving in that direction next right soon. It'll be an empty nest. And I thank God Toby night after dinner, every night, since the kids were little. They go do something. I actually don't care what it is. As long as they're not burning the house down in, sometimes they might even ask me a question like, mom, you might've been burned outside and I'll be like, sure, cause I'm not paying attention, but they go do something.

I actually don't care what it is. As long as they're not bothering dad and I, who were sitting at this table talking every night after dinner, that's been happening for years. It's important. Even if it's five minutes because you guys like Peter was little and he didn't like food very well. So we'd, he'd take his three bites of everything and then hop down and go play because we need to talk.

Not that it's perfect, but it's important. Sometimes we're arguing let's be clear, but we weren't, but we were, we needed to do that because I needed it. I was staying home with them in the morning. We, most of the time then I started working, I needed time to just be an adult.

Yes.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. What about the tit for tat

Renee: like keeping score with parents parenting? Yeah. Yeah. How do you get around that? Here's I don't call it. I don't know. I thought you were going to say this. I'm thinking like tap in, tap out. We definitely do that. Like we would say, Hey, tap in. I need you to.

Not doing this by myself. Do like tap in buddy Toby with me. Or tap out, I got this don't button. So that's our tap in or tap out. I don't need you to deal with this right now. I'm dealing with it and you might turn the table on it. So that's one thing. And then the score keeping of, I did this, you need to do that.

Is that what you mean?

Nancy: Like I've been with them all weekend. I've been with them all week. It's your turn. Or I went golfing last weekend. So I get to you and golfing last weekend. So I get to go to the school.

Renee: I know that's how, yeah, I think that's, I think that you do need your score captures a little bit.

I understand that score keeping, but I think that part of the score keeping has to be how much time do we spend together with these kids? If that, if you're doing so much, score-keeping that you're never together. That's a problem. I know that he, or she might say, I'm going out with my friends. I have been with them.

I need a break and you don't keep that kind of a score. You might get them back. Like someone might feel like I am getting the short end of the stick here and I need some time or, and also it's a call-out that I'm overwhelmed. I'm right. So I don't, I think you might need to keep some tally if you need to, but the tally has to include you guys doing it together.

And I think you'll feel better about doing it apart. If you do some of it together. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. I always say, because I always want them to, I always want it to be like, instead of here's my score, I've been, you've been golfing the past five Sunday, so I get my own Sunday to be like, I'm overwhelmed on Sundays.

Can you help out? Not necessarily because of I've kept score, but because I'm coming to you and sharing what's really happening. And I think. Yeah, we just get so stuck in the score-keeping the justifying, why it's okay. That I need a break instead of just being like, I need a break because I said so, calling out to you

Renee: . Yes that's what I'm trying to help parents too. Sorry, this kind of reminds me of that when you've been with the kids all day and you're entering back in. Two things, oh, come back to another thing with that, the whole enter back in. But when you're entering back in to do positive gossip on purpose instead of negative.

So just to remind yourself, the good things really did happen. Even if he did knock his brothers total block thing down and scream in his face, he did it for 10 good things. And then he happened to do that. So in front of the kids, positive gossip, or if you're calling him and he's out at the golf course, you say, I should tell you some of the awesome things he did today.

It helps you remember that there were really were some good things. And then you won't like dwell on the negative. One thing he did, that was horrible. A lot of families will say like he does all this annoying behavior and I'll say about how many times a day does he do that? They're like two.

Then tell me about the rest of the day is ruling your life. You just written and just paid me to come to your house for two times a day. That really you should pay for two times a day. If you want that to go away. I'm just saying don't dwell on the negative as much because there's some really great things.

Yeah. So that helps with the shift of it. Wasn't the worst day. There was some really bad things that happened. Clearly. I hated some of this stuff, but he's doing pretty good in some other things. So just being more aware of the positive. That makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And then this is just for parents in terms of kids' anxiety at transitions.

There are there actually, there's a book and it's called the big disconnect and it's by, I can remember her name, but anyways, she the big disconnect. And she talks about that at transitions, we need to add transitions. We need to make sure we don't are not on our phones, that we are looking each other in the eye, especially children.

So when you're picking them up, dropping them off, you just came in, just tag teamed with your husband and you're taking over and he's no phone. They need to see you.

Nancy: we'll put all these books in the show notes that you referenced.

That would be great. Send them to me and I'll link them up in the show notes. So that would be cool. Okay. Renee, we covered a lot of this, man. I know there's a ton more to cover in childbearing, but how can people find out more about you and your services and what you are right.

Renee: Sure. So it's child in balloon child in bloom.com is my website.

And if you go there, you'll see, I do things for schools, churches, businesses, and individual families. So schools call me to train their teachers and come in and observe behaviors in the school and also run parenting programs through the school or PTO churches, call me to do the same kind of thing.

They might have me work one-on-one with a family that's really in need. They might have me do. Programs for parents and programs for teachers. And then businesses do this for through their human resource department. Will have me come and do things like that just to provide, work-life balance programs.

And then Obviously my big, my job really is to go into families homes and coach them, sit with them across the table. Go through this with their family and mind solve problem solve. So we do that. I also do small groups. I'm going to run a, some small groups this summer for like age appropriate, small groups.

Yeah. Parents of toddlers, parents of teenagers. So you can start to see those on my website. I have a newsletter that goes out every month. If you email me, I'll put you on it. Okay. And it's Renee, R E N e@childandbloom.com

Renee: So I love that you did this and Nancy, I just have it so much. Like I hope it's something that helps them, give them an idea. I always say to parents is one thing. Maybe just choose one thing you might do. Yeah.

Nancy: Thank you. Thank you so much for making this so clear and giving great examples and is awesome. Totally awesome. There is so much pressure to be the perfect parent. I hear it all the time from my clients, the pressure to be perfect and be all things to our children. Hopefully this conversation gave you some fresh ideas on how to decrease, not only your anxiety, but your children's.

One of my big takeaways was being honest with ourselves and our children. We tend to convince ourselves we can do all the things and have time for everything when there are only 24 hours in a day. So being honest about what we have time for, what our expectations are and owning when we fail is so important, not just for our children, but ourselves.

---

Episode 143: How to Avoid Passing Your Anxiety on to Your Kids - Part 1

In today’s episode, I am talking with Renée Mattson, parenting expert and owner of Child in Bloom about helping our kids with anxiety.

In these unprecedented times…

In these uncertain times…

Now more than ever…

UGH. 

The language of 2020 is getting old. 

But it’s getting old because we are running out of words to describe the anxiety, overwhelm, fear, and uncertainty that we are living through right now in July of 2020. 

It’s not just anxiety-provoking for us as adults but also for the next generation. Statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.  

A few months ago, one of my clients asked if I’d seen the Atlantic article about childhood anxiety—they were convinced that they were totally messing up their kids! 

Of course, I read the article and it inspired me to reach out to parenting expert (and childhood friend of mine!) Renee Mattson. She is the owner and founder of Child in Bloom, a coaching business for parents and teachers. Renee’s a mother of three, a licensed intervention specialist for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach, adjunct faculty member at Xavier University, and trainer and coach for educational professional development. I wanted to find out her thoughts on how we’re impacting our kids and how we can better parent them through these anxious times. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids

• Why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important

• How a lack of time has made over accommodating an even bigger problem and how to approach it

• The idea that our children are craving an adult in the room and too often we treat them like mini-adults

Resources mentioned:

• Child In Bloom

• Child In Bloom on Facebook

• Book: The Explosive Child: A New Approach For Understanding And Parenting Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children by Ross Green

• Book: The Happiest Toddler on the Block: How to Eliminate Tantrums and Raise a Patient, Respectful, and Cooperative One- to Four-Year-Old by Harvey Karp

• Book: The Soul of Discipline: The Simplicity Parenting Approach to Warm, Firm, and Calm Guidance- From Toddlers to Teens by Kim John Payne

• The Atlantic Article What Happened to American Childhood?

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Renee: And a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to tie it, spend time tying his shoes more.

We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging.

Nancy: In these unprecedented times in these uncertain times now, more than ever the language of 2020, it's getting a bit old, but it's getting old because we're running out of words to describe the anxiety.

Fear and uncertainty we are living through right now in July of 2020. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. It's not just anxiety provoking for us as adults, but also for the next generation, our children, grandchildren, nieces, and nephews statistics show that the strain of our world is taking a toll on our children.

A few months ago. A client of mine Vox me to say, “did you see the latest Atlantic magazine and the article about childhood anxiety? So depressing. I am totally messing up my kids.“ Of course, I immediately went to find the article, which I will link to in the show notes. It is entitled what happened to American childhood, too many kids show worrying signs of fragility from a very young age.

After reading the article, I was inspired to reach out to a childhood friend of mine and parenting expert, Renee Mattson, to get her thoughts on the article and how we can better parent our children through these anxious times. Renee Mattson is the owner and founder of child and bloom a coaching business for parents and teachers.

She is a mother of three licensed intervention specialists for children with specific learning and behavior needs, licensed educator for elementary and gifted children, parent coach adjunct faculty member at Xavier university and trainer and coach for educational professional develop. In this episode, Renee and I dive into the article, which discusses two concepts, one parents who have anxiety pass it along to their kids.

And two, one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety. And this makes it worse. Renee tells us her perspective on this idea and helpful ways to not pass along your anxiety to your kids. How a lack of time has made this over accommodating, even bigger and more of a problem, and how to approach that.

The idea that our children are craving and adult in the room. And too often, we treat them like mini adults and why clear boundaries, empathy, and compassion are so important. I am so excited to have Renee Mattson here from child and bloom. And the reason I wanted to bring Renee on is a client of mine brought to me the, an article that was in the Atlantic about called childhood and an anxious age.

And I read the article. And it talks a lot about anxiety in kids. And I thought I am going to bring in my friend and expert in parenting, Renee Mattson. So Renee, thanks for being here.

Renee: Wow. I'm so glad you even thought to think, to call me. That was so great. And I read the same article and my husband actually just sent it to me after you.

Nancy: Thank you. That's awesome. Meant to be.

So it's a long article and it's pretty depressing at the beginning that the statistics are not positive about how anxiety is coming around. So two things that really stuck out to me in this article. Parents who have anxiety tend to pass it along to their kids.

And one way they pass it along is by over accommodating. So their kids don't have to experience the same anxiety they do. And that just makes it worse. Do you agree? How do you see this showing up with your clients?

Renee: I definitely agree. And I agree because I see it. I think about it in terms of any skill.

So if you think of dealing with anxiety as a skill, I'm a teacher. So I teach teachers and I teach parents how to teach their children. And when I'm working with children, I'm always thinking about, I need to teach model and practice this lagging skill. So if I were to think about it in a situation where a parent's feeling anxiety and then their child might be going through a little moment, that's bringing some kind of anxiety or suffering.

If I don't put them in the situation, I don't give them a chance to suffer through it and grow if that makes sense. So I'm going to give you like an example. I might give some of my clients. I think about it in terms of Velcro versus tie shoe. So if you have a little guy who doesn't know how to tie his shoes and you need to think about, eventually I'm going to have to teach him.

I could put them in Velcro the rest of his life, but we know if he's wearing Velcro when he's 12. So eventually I'm going to have to pause and teach him. And when I teach him, it's going to be, there's going to be some suffering through that. Discomfort and time and anger and frustration, but I have to do it so he can push through to the next level, same thing with math.

Like I could just give him this flashcards or give them a multiplication chart. And then he will never have to learn his math facts, but I actually have to spend time teaching him. That same thing with social skills. And I also think the same thing with coping skills and a lot of my families, I work with feel like I don't want to put them in that situation because that makes them anxious. And I might say to him, oh no. He needs to be in that situation more, just like the little guy who needs to tie his shoes more, we need to spend time tying his shoes more. We need to spend time doing math facts more. We need to spend time in social situations more because he's working on that lagging skill.

And actually Ross Green calls it lagging skills. He wrote the Explosive Child and I love that he calls it that because I think it's a great word for it

Nancy: . You’re putting anxiety is a lagging, Coping with anxiety could be a lagging skill?

Renee: Yeah. Okay. It might be. I'm not really good at it right now. And I need to be put into situations where I can figure it out now. In the middle of that, I always call it the fire pit in the middle of the anxiety in the middle of tying shoes that's a really bad zone to be teaching him how to tie his shoes.

If I was going to teach him how to tie his shoes or get through tying his shoes, I got to do that before sometime when he's chill and I am chill. not, when I'm trying to get out the door, that's a bad zone. If I'm going to try to teach my child about how to get through their anxiety or their worries, I'm going to have to teach him over here, like before or after? Not in the anxious moment, that's a really bad zone to teach. So my teaching has to come at different times.

Nancy: Got it. It could also be that a child has a lagging skill that ends up causing anxiety. So they might have a lagging skill of social interaction, or how to order at a restaurant to say, , And then they don't know how to do that enough because their parents always do it for them.

Then it builds anxiety for them when they get there.

Renee: For sure. And then the parents continue to accommodate. And would you say, you know what? You didn't sleep in our bed? Cause I know you're having a hard time sleeping at night. Or you can just, we're just not going to go out to eat. We don't go out to eat.

I actually had a mom who said to me, we don't go to the zoo. We don't go to Kings island. We don't go places because he doesn't know he doesn't handle those situations very well. As someone who's trying to coach the parent along is, oh no, we're going to go. We need to go. But but we teach before we go and then we need to walk through it and then have a little plan that goes with it.

Nancy: Same as you would with an adult who was nervous about whatever

Renee: Yeah. Yeah, I know it brings up the mom's anxiety cause maybe she has her own and she's oh, this is making me anxious, but we know that the more I walk through it and you walk through it, I being the child, I walked through it and I recover your fine tuning, my recovery skills.

I need to just, I need to refine it. I need to refine the skill, whether it's tying shoes or getting along with my sibling or understanding that I'm feeling a certain way and I need to do something that's going to help me reboot and recover a little

Nancy: Yeah, that totally makes sense. Part of what they're saying in this article, with the accommodating is that the parents take away any suffering and you're saying suffering is key.

Renee: I know, in fact, when I give my talk about different types of parenting styles do you want me to go ahead and tell you what I might say?

So the parenting styles that I would describe and you've heard them before, but I put them in my own words, which would be, you've got your bossy or strict. I actually even had a young teacher I was working with really recently just said, oh, I don't like the word strict.

So she does definitely doesn't want to be a strict parent or a strict teacher. So you've got that style. That's going to be the, my way or the highway. We're not negotiating no discussion. It is what it is. Suck it up parent. And then you've got, and I would call this on the other side, you've got the polite parent permissive or polite parent.

And by the way, the bossy parents going to be, because I said so, which you've heard that before I'm sure John Rosemond is one of the parenting experts that would say, because I'd BISS because I said so.

Nancy: that, that's the reason, that's good enough

Renee: that’s enough for the bossy instruct parent.

Because I said so, and then the other side of that would be the polite or permissive. And I say polite because it's usually suggesting would you like to get in the grocery cart? Which is a suggestion and usually they're bent down, like you're in charge or would you like to do this? Would you like to put your coat on?

Would you like to come outside? And so it's lots of asking and suggesting they're being very polite. They might say it's time to eat dinner. Okay? And they'll tack on a little, okay. At the end. Is that okay? And sometimes get a no out of that. So that's that polite permissive zone.

There's a lots of negotiation, lots of discussion and lots of connection.

Nancy: And then is there a parenting like middle guru who wants you to go there?

Renee: I would say that kind of goes with more of the relationship building. I'm not going to name a name of the person, but It's all about the relationship. And I am not saying that it's not about the relationship because I'd like to have you meet right in the middle of this, instead of because I said so. Because you said which is what I would call permissive. I'm going to go into the middle zone, which I think most people would agree if they could really think about that.

You got to be in the middle of it. But I also need you to lean towards, because I said so okay. because you're the adult in the room. We've been there, done that. And you are the one who has, to make the rules. If that makes sense, because if I'm three years old and I realized I'm in charge, that makes me very happy.

It makes me very anxious. So in the middle zone it's because I said so, but I put L with it BLISS because you love them. So instead of, because I said, because you love them enough to connect connect, connect, connect and I usually say connect four time. So you do have to be polite and nice to them sometimes, but you have to connect to them.

You have to connect four times so that you can correct the problem with the permissive imply they really struggle with correcting.

Nancy: So what does connecting look like?

Renee: Connecting looks like I see you. Okay. I see you. I hear you. I know you. I like you. I actually really like you and I like to hang out with you and I want to be with you.

Let's do something together. I see what you need. I can feel what you feel. So it's I see you. I hear you. I feel you. I know you and I like you. So that's really important, but just as important, if not more is the correction side of this, because you have to decide what the rules are.

Nancy: , For the record, not a parent here. What about the common practice I had seen. was set a timer, like we're going to leave in to give them advanced warning. We're going to leave in two minutes and I'll set a timer for two minutes. where does that lie?

Renee:

Okay. That happens a lot, obviously. And I usually say parents well, first of all, kids don't really have a very good sense of time. So using time, isn't going to be your friend. That's not. That's not going to be so great, but kids are usually more concrete. So you're going to say, are you going to, and they want some pounds, kids want power.

So if you tell me two minutes, I'm like, no, I don't want to leave in two minutes. Or I want to have some control in this. You, as the parent tried to set the rules, remember you are the author of the rules. So that's that because I said, so we are leaving. We are going to leave. And when we leave, we're going to go do this next thing that we want to do or need to do.

So we see the progression. We are leaving. I wonder if we should leave in one minute or two minutes, if you want to use time, literally giving them some choice within the rule box. And this is better than time should we go down the slide 10 times or two times?

I want to go down 10. That's fine. Let's go down 10 times and then we are leaving. So I gave you a window of control. I hear you. You love the slide. I see. You're having fun. I know you, we got to go I'm in the author of the rules. We're not going to do it a hundred more times just because you want to, when you're too sad to leave, everybody's sad to leave.

In fact, we might even say the guy who wrote the Happiest toddler on the block, and I wish I could remember his name. He always says, you need to say I see you're sad, sad, sad, sad. You're mad, mad, mad,. And it's just for toddler, you would say that, but I might even say that with an 11 year old, like I see you.

You're sad. Dude. You're really sad. I'm sad too. It's fun. This is awesome. Don't forget. We want to come back and do this again, but we got to go. So what do you want to do now? You choose your items. You want to go down two times or 10 times if he says I'm not going down. I don't. I want to go down 12.

Okay. Then I guess I'll choose 10. Because we're going. Because I said between two and 10. Okay. He says neither I'm going down seven! Fine, let's go. That's right. Sometimes I'll have meet with some parents that are really like, want to be in control. They'll say I said two or 10, right? Like we're glad it's in the middle.

, why are you starting a second layer battle here?

. I think it's usually about control for parents. They just think I should be in control. I should be in charge. And I said, so that's that whole, because I said so, and with the parenting, the most anxiety ridden parenting thing that you can do for the child is that you try to be permissive and polite and you're at the grocery store and you're asking him to get in the cart. Would you like to get in the cart? And he doesn't want to get in the cart and, he needs to be in the cart and you're not listening to your gut enough to say this kid needs to be in a cart.

And then you flip over and flip out into the because I said mode. You are trying to be all permissive and polite and would you want to, and please get in and then you lose your mind and you've jumped way over here. And what if you were just in the middle, which is clear, cut. Matter of fact, I love you.

You love me in the cart. Let's go hop in. 1 2, 3. Oh, I see you just like a rocket ship in the cart. Let's go very confident and clear about it. Like it's no big deal. We're going to get in the cart and go. Yeah, that's the safe zone. And I'm going to tell you, that's why your kids feel really safe with their teachers at school.

Because the very best teachers I work with are right there. They're loving and clear

Nancy: Which is any good boundaries. The thing is, I will say the majority of my clients who have a lot of anxiety come from homes where they had to do a lot of mind reading, where they had to figure out what the rules were because their parents weren't telling them either because of addiction or they just didn't care or, whatever, or they're busy with their own stuff.

Or they were, our generation doesn't have a lot of super permissive parents. But I, so I could see why it's so high, because now we're getting into the permissive parenting and that's unknowingly you're putting your three-year-old in charge, causing them to have anxiety.

Like they have to do more mind reading to figure out what's the right answer here.

Renee: And there's a book called the soul of discipline from Kim, John Payne. I'm actually doing a book club on it at the end of the month in May. And I love it. He talks about it children are pinging like a submarine. Like just tell me where's the boundary.

Tell me I got to find my way of pinging through the water, like a submarine, but I'm trying to figure this out here. What can I do? What's the rule today? I thought the rule was this and I'm in charge of this. And that is very scary. But at school, oh, I know that. We stand in a line. We walked down the hall.

I sit here. Oh no, they'll tell you the rules. They'll say, oh no, we have to do it this way. And that makes me feel safe. And so they're begging for mom and dad just to tell him the go to behaviors. What I taught, tell me the go behavior. Mommy. Tell me exactly what I need to do. And start focusing on what I don't need to do.

Stop it, quit it don't, if you put all your energy in the stop behaviors and you never teach the go behaviors, the child is confused. But if you clearly talk about this as what we can do, this is what we do. This is how we function and we teach it and we model it and we practice it and you set them out to go do it.

Then I feel success because even if I made a little bit of success, You named it. That's who I am. I'm the guy who survived. I'm the guy who recovered. I'm the guy who I was really sad and upset, but I made it through. And then I have that build self-confidence. And I think that parents who are trying to get their kids to be in charge and let them make all those choices and have agency, like they get to, I get to be in charge.

They are thinking they're doing it for self-esteem and it's right. Because this is my experience. It's just my experience. I think they're, they are watching the fact that it's just scary for kids. But if I give you a boundaries and you get choices within the boundaries, it feels so safe.

And then I feel confident that I can do this and I can function. I have a really good day. That

Nancy: makes a lot of sense. So how did you get into this work?

Renee: So I'm a teacher for, so first of all, I babysat forever. I, that was what I did. 15 year old. And then I nannied all through college while I was studying to be a teacher.

I was a regular ed teacher, and then I decided I really loved to go into the regular ed classroom and zero in on, why does this guy learn differently? And what's he doing that makes his day different. And then I started to look at behaviors and why is this guy behaving differently? He is what's going on with him.

So that kind of, I became a special educator and I worked in special education with behavior and learning. In public schools in Ohio. And then I did I stayed home with my own children and I have three kids. I have a college student, I have a high schooler and I have a sixth grader. And while I was staying home with him, especially in the beginning, I was putting these things to use going, oh, the same thing I did in my classroom, I taught severe behaviors.

And one of the classrooms that I worked with kids with the most severe behaviors you could ever imagine. And I, when I was working with them, I was always telling them in, when I first got the job, I was young and naive and telling them to stop it, quit kids who that kid cuss me out or whatever my aide in the classroom said, Renee, you're never catching them being good.

And you never finding when they recovered oh, you're right. I'm so busy telling him this guy, he's not doing it right. That I never looked over here at these guys who were actually functioning or the one time we'll do it. So it helped me to really start to focus on the functioning behaviors.

Then I started teaching teachers at Xavier university. And when I did that, they asked if one of us would, might want to be a parent coach or get trained in it because we have to coach our special ed ma moms and dads who have children with special needs on how we do things at school. Why don't we coach you at home?

How to do that. And then we're doing this. There we go. So 2012 started doing this independently.

Nancy: Okay. And that's when Child in bloom came around?

Renee: Yes! And I still teach teachers Xavier. So still teach a little bit.

Nancy: So thanks want to give people a little hint of your background there. One reason the article gave for why parents accommodate and I know this is so true is lack of time and the amazing thing. I was blown away in the article by how parents are accommodating from too, because the kids, I didn't want to be alone to not let the kids didn't want to go upstairs by himself. So the parents would constantly go upstairs and they were just accommodating all their fears I guess I would say. And cause it's easier for them to accommodate rather than to let them give the time for the kid to figure it out. So I know that's a real problem. How do you see that playing out? And do you have any tips for changing that?

Renee: So I definitely see it playing out and I know that a lot of parents are really stressed on time. A lot of them. That's huge. And so if they're trying to get out the door in the morning, they just don't have time to be dealing with the behavior.

Just give him what he wants. So he doesn't cry. Make him happy, cut the sandwich and whatever shape he needs it in. And so we do ask what's accommodating, like he has to have a sandwich cut. This, the carrot has to be on the right-hand side. He has to have a juice.

It's still two thirds, not one half filled, like literally that's real. That's definitely happening. And so yeah, it goes to grandma's house and grandma's no, I'm not cutting your sandwich Like everybody else eats it and he's going to have an anxiety meltdown. So what would be best is if when you note, I like.

You're thinking of yourself as you're not just a parent, you're a teacher and good teachers. When they see their kids in process, they note, they take note like, Ooh, that's something I got to teach. This is something that is working for him. So instead of getting like dramatic about it in the moment, think this is a teachable moment.

And I don't teach in the moment I teach later. So instead of thinking bad kid, bad behavior, bad situation. Ha we have a problem. I usually draw a circle for parents and I say, let's put all the awesome things about your child in that circle. Then let's draw a really tight square around the circle and wherever the circle bumps up against the square is where your child's bumps up against the world.

And so you might want to cut that in within whatever perfect shape, but he's going to bump up against the world and they're not going to have that cookie cutter. Shape there it's there. And so that's a function problem. And so it's just a little note to self. We got to work on that. So whatever that little, wherever it bumps up against the square that's a teaching I got to teach and I got a model.

And when I say teach, I usually say, teach outside of the moment and teach with 5 words at a time. So five words and really awkward pause that keeps your anxiety down and it keeps their processing up. So less words. So in outside of the moment, when I started to teach, I might say, so you love to have sandwiches cut in fancy shapes.

I do too, but grandma doesn't have those shapes. Let's draw it out. Let's draw our house. In grandma's house. So we teach outside of the moment we teach with less words, we teach with more pictures. I'm literally going to draw it out. Here's our house. Here's grandma's house. What's the difference? What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house?

What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house at six words, two minutes. What are we going to do when we're at grandma's house? We don't have anything. So that's like really good teachers know how to talk that way. And the compassion study down. It's like we're back in kindergarten and we all feel so safe.

What a mom might do. Cause she's getting anxious about you can't do this from your grandma's house, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, the kid only heard the first three to five calm words. You said she, they missed the paragraph. So if you find yourself talking in paragraphs three to five words with a very weird and awkward, purposeful, And pictures.

Now you're going to say, you're not going to draw a picture for a 13 year old.. You're going to draw picture for a 13 year old and you going to put two, a piece of paper between you at least, and paper as a buffer to be like, Hey, look, let's draw this out. Let me just show this to you. It doesn't have to be stick figures.

Like you might do it with your little one, but it would be like, let me chart this for you. Let me show you when you choose this you also choose this and this and this. So you choose to cheat on your test you also choose to go to the principal and tell them this. And you also do this, and I guess you choose this, but if you choose this, you choose to get the grade you get, and we love you anyway. How about that?

And we love you anyway, on the top one, two. How about that? So I might literally draw that out like a chart, or I might like, even with my college students say, Hey, you could take a piece of paper and you draw out what you want. I'll draw out what I want. Come back with their paper and we'll talk about this.

The paper becomes a buffer, so you don't have to look me in the eye.

Nancy: Oh, that makes a ton of sense.

Renee: I had to do that with my severe behavior kids because they never wanted to look me in the eye. So it's where it comes from, but it works all ages. So teach outside of the moment, teach with less words, teach with more pictures, and then you have to put them in the situation, like you said earlier, where they have to practice.

You got to take them to their friend's house so you can practice the social skill. They just learned, you got to go to grandmas and practice what we learned. We learned how we're going to respond when she gives us sandwiches that cut like a Teddy bear. What are we going to do? something like that

Nancy: . So do you go through it right before you go to grandma's?

Renee: Yeah. I probably would.

Let's see what we're going to do and let's see if you can do it. And we're going to probably talk to grandma about it too, and say, Hey, we've got a new thing here and maybe, or not, if you can't talk to it, if it's your mother-in-law, you may not be able to talk to her about that.

But they're going to have to talk it through. Yeah, definitely. And we're going to come out on the other side with we made a little bit of progress. You were mad and you screamed and you threw the carrot across the floor, but you came back and you join the dinner table. Even if you didn't do that you came with her like, so you're going to find the smallest, tiny bits of progress.

And know that's who you are. You are a survivor.

Nancy: That's I like that. So what about, and I know a big problem for parents is the co-sleeping. And I know there's a lot of like hardcore fans of co-sleeping, there's a lot of written about the family bed and, I know nothing about parenting, but I know about the family bed.

Tell me like, and as I know, some parents like that, even as I have as clients that are like, they're trying to break that, how do you do that, cause that is a major stressor. A because the kid gets it so upset, because the parent wants to feel needed by comforting, comforting the kid and being there for the kid.

Like we still joke. I can remember walking into my dad, my parents bedroom. And you always went to my dad. He was the one that woke up and I would stay, I can envision myself standing there and trying to wake him up. And my dad was like this big burly man. Jump up out of bed, he'd be like,” What’s going on?!” and I would be like, I had a nightmare and I still wanted to crawl into bed with him.

That was the end game that I wanted, but it would be like, okay, we got to get a drink of water. We got to go to the bathroom. And he would go walk with me to my bathroom while I did that. And then he would tuck me in and that would be it like, yeah, there might be a, sorry, you had a nightmare, but there was no like come into bed or sleep on the floor next to me, it was, you go this is our room.

And that is your room. And, neither shall the two meet.

Renee: if he may have done that sometimes. And sometimes didn't do it. You would have been more confused. At least you knew the boundary. That's what my gut says. Which I know a lot of people will disagree with it, but I feel like at least you felt safe.

And I guess I know now if he could cuddle with you and outside of the moment, like right then might not have been the best time to cuddle with you. It might've been during the day to recap it a little like how that happened last night, that's a thing it's real. You felt that way. So what are we going to do to make us feel safe?

Or how could we even meet in the middle on that? But we can't have all that conversation at nighttime. Night time is the worst time to have a big conversation. So I wouldn't ever suggest that you do that, but to be very confident and I'm confident in you, you're confident in me. I'll walk you to your bed.

I'll make you feel safe. What light should we turn on tonight? We'll talk about it in the morning, You're safe. You're okay. And you can handle it, which are the three words that you would use with any traumatized kid you're safe you’re ok, and we can handle this. We can do this, but not to downplay that they're upset, but I hear you, it sounds like you're upset.

We need to go to bed and what can I do for you right here? But if to go back to the move, what I see is a lot of, this is where it comes from with the bed. When you were nursing a baby you're being told feed on demand. Feed on demand and you have to feed on demand.

If you're nursing, you got to feed when that baby is hungry, even if it's not your schedule, you feed on demand. And I love it. I think that's exactly what you need to do.. No doubt about it. I think it's a slippery slope to everything on demand.

Because if we don't stop there with the feed on demand, we could easily slip into he really just wants to sleep in our bed with us every night. He really wants to go to school in his pajamas. That's what he wants. He really wants to wear his rain boots and princess costume to the store to church or whatever.

But he really wants to do this and the really wants turn into, he was ruling all the things because we really don't want him to suffer. And when he can learn, oh, I see that you love to wear your princess costume with your rain boots. I love that you love that. This is where we can do this.

Let's make a zone where we do this. And then this is the zone where we don't doesn't mean we don't love it still. It's just not where we do it. So let's, I hear you. I see you. I know what you want and I know what you love, and I want to build it into our life, but this is not where we're going to do it.

Cause I'm the boss. If that makes sense. All right. I'm in charge. I have to be in, I have to be in charge of that. Now. Some people will disagree obviously, and that's fine, but I think, but I really, truly believe you just have to be careful on the slippery slope of everything onto me.

Nancy: That makes a lot of sense.

Yeah. So what do you do when your kid is sick? Cause in the article I appreciated, it said the parents have become the comforter instead of the Teddy bear. I thought that was such a great line.

Renee: Yeah, good. Keep going wherever you go with that.

Nancy: So I, yeah, if your kid is really upset and it's, then your anxiety is increasing as you're hearing them being upset, how do you handle it?

Renee: The first time it happens I think you really do need to be there for them. You need to just sit in it with them. Let's just sit here in it. And I really am fine with kids sitting in it, but we're just going to sit here. And I might have can sit on my lap in this. I might let you give you this big squeezy hug in this. I might, but then I also am in, remember I'm thinking teachable moment here. I got to teach. I'm going to have to teach my teacher hats coming on. Cause this is a moment. It's just a moment. It's just a behavior. It's just a situation. It's not who he is. It's not going to be who he is 20 years from now when we go there very quickly.

Oh, he doesn't like school. He'll never like school. If I go into the whole. And make this a story. The story will repeat if I just sit in it and not, don't make a lot of language around it, not a lot of emotion around it and just be, I'll be better. Everybody will be a little better off. And I teach later when everybody's calmed down.

I call that the fire pit, when you're in the fire pit, there's you just need to keep people safe and calm and function. Less words, way less words. So I see, like parents will end that fire pit be like, oh, why do you feel this way? Get rid of why? Just take Why out of your mind in that zone.

Like, why are you feeling this way? What's your problem? What were you thinking? None of those three questions are gone. Be a detective, not a psycho analyzer. Like we're going to detect this. Who, what, when. What before, what, after what know, like those kind of fact-finding questions to bring us back down to where, when, how, where are we right now?

But not why here, because why we can deal with later. If we get into the why here, there's always a really good reason to get out of your bed and come to mind. Does that make sense? Yeah.

Nancy: Can you say what happened?

Renee: Oh, did you hear a sound? Did you hear a sound? Oh, I think too.

Let's look out the window. What, where, when, how many times, like we're fact finding, we're not, oh my gosh. Are you nervous? Why do you want to sleep with mommy? And here's the thing you're in the middle of sleeping. So you're less likely to be functioning yourself very well. And I will tell you this really quickly when it comes to sleep issues, because people have me come to their house a lot and help them like super nanny style.

When I come to the house, they asked me to come to their house and I do, and they say, I want you to come and sit with us through bedtime. I'll say that's fine. I definitely will do that. I will come to your house at night time. I'll sit on your master bed and wait for him to get back in there. And we will go through the whole process of getting into staying in his room and all of that, but we're not going to do that until we've done it during the day because behaviors usually reflect daytime, need daytime, need for boundary, daytime, need for systems daytime need for teaching.

And the data is usually if you're having issues at night time, you also have some issues during the day and all of the dates, the nighttime ones first is a challenge when we haven't really put boundaries in order and system and teaching during the day. So let's work on when we have energy first and then and sometimes those nighttime behaviors go away because they start to feel safe with the rules and boundaries during the day, and set the rules and the boundary at night flow a little bit better.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense. But I'd like to how you say, cause I, even as adults, I would, I hate when people say why like it, just that, that gets you into justifying. Why you know that it's okay to feel that way. Like it's putting it on the person to justify and.

But in a sense, it's getting them all hopped up. What's going on? Why are you feeling this way, blah, instead of bringing this, the calming the situation.

Renee: Yeah. It's just the facts. It's just, it is what it is. Not that it's bad or good. It's just like a detective. I don't, I always say to my parents that I work with no detectives walking into a crime scene saying, why did you rob the bank?

You're not ever going to say that because there's a really good reason to rob a bank. And so I didn't have any money in my bank account. I needed some money oh no, it's going to be a who, what, when, where, what happened first? What happened second? Are we safe? Are we okay? Can we handle, it's going to be very factual.

My husband would say that Renee, that means you're very cold, not cold. I'm just clear. I like you, you like me, the behavior stinks. Let's get rid of it. Like it's just behavior. It's just a thing. It has nothing to do with how much I love you or how much you love me, but I can't get emotional about it.

You got to cut loose from the emotions.

Nancy: Yeah. because like I had a friend of mine actually, who, whose daughter was really nervous. They had lost a couple, a couple of extended relatives had died.. And so the daughter was really afraid. She was going to lose mom and dad, didn't want them to leave.

And it was this whole big thing. And so they were doing like all this anxiety stuff, like tapping and visualizing it on a cloud and. All this stuff to help her. And I said, have you ever said to her? And she was like 10 at the time. And I said in that eight to 10, and I said, have you ever said to her, what would it be like if mommy and daddy, if something happened to us, nd she was like, oh my gosh, no.

Because then that's really addressing it. But that's what she's nervous about. Let's put that out on the table and talk about with, what that feels like, rather than trying to hide it with tapping and all this other stuff.

Renee:

Let's just put it on the table. It doesn't mean it's true. So actually I think what a lot of the families that when I started working with us, I actually started working. Because I felt like I saw a lot of families that were like, not even able to say that a behavior issue. Say that an anxiety moment exists.

Oh no. If I say it, then that means I don't love him. If I say his behavior is annoying, if I see his behaviors obnoxious, if I say his behavior is anything then I don't love him. But I'm just like, just say it, just put it on your cheek. What are you worried about? That's what you were saying with anxiety.

What is it? If we can name it, then it's a thing. And then I can be like, okay, that's a thing that exists. And now I need to think about it as to what are the opposites of those things? What are the things I can control, I guess maybe what's the go behaviors. Would I say stop behaviors over here? That would be hurting or fussing or disrespect kind of behaviors.

And then the go behaviors are those, what's the next steps? What are the things I can do to function a little bit better through this? I'm still going to feel, but what am I going to do differently? And those are the good behaviors that have to be taught modeling.

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense, because I think that then, because for that example I gave of, what, if my parents die, she's already thinking that.

Yeah. So anytime the parents are like, let's not go there. Then she's oh, then she doesn't trust herself. Because it's coming up for her. That's a real thing, but her parents are constantly dismissing it from her too, to go into tapping or to avoid it. And then she doesn't learn how to soothe when that comes up, because I, this is how I feel, but I don't need to get wrapped up in that.

That's not a whole huge big thing. And now I just need to know how I'm going to react and choose my go behavior

Renee: And your dad walking you back to your bed is that's very, it goes right there with it. It's a clear thing. You were worried about something in your room. You had a nightmare. It existed.

And he's okay, sounds like it existed. Let's go back. Let's deal with it. In the next day, if he talked it through with you, it's real. And let's talk about it. Let's put it on the paper and see what we can do about it. Yeah.

Nancy: I was just highlighting that. Like you put it back on the paper

Renee: That’s the balance between go to your bed because I said so, and just stay in mommy's bed because I don't want to see you crying. It's in the middle of it's time to go to bed because I said so, and we do have to go to bed because we have school in the morning or whatever we do are going to bed. You are safe, you are okay. And we can handle this, but when we see each other tomorrow, we'll talk it through or come up with a plan.

Can I make you feel safe? And now as much as I can in your space and we'll talk about it.

Nancy: Because it is funny. I still get up. If I have a nightmare, I still get up, go to the bathroom, get a glass of water.

Renee: That was your safety routine.

Nancy: My mom and I will still laugh about that because she'll say, yeah, I get up. I go to the, I get a glass of water.

I go to the bathroom. I think of your dad.

Renee: well, coping skills. And that's what all that matters is that she has a routine. You had a function. That's a very functioning normal way to handle it. Not normal. You know what I mean? Like just typical like you, that you're going to be able to live with someone and do that.

And that's what the goal is to get them to live with someone.

Nancy: He never did the, there was no conversation the next day for the record,

Renee: No parents knew how to do that, by the way, no parents,

Nancy: but in its way it normalized it's okay that you're feeling this way. And because you're feeling this way, this is what we do to solve that.

We go to the bathroom, we go to glass of water and I tuck you in. That does not happen normal. That's special because you're hurting.

Renee: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. And you learned that from him regularly because it was a system and that's what gives you. Kids are really begging for there. Begging for, just give me a system.

I need this, and especially I work with a lot of kids with ADHD and anxiety, and sometimes I've seen things that seem like they go hand in hand, they just need. I just need a boundary. In fact, they need more boundaries, not less. So a lot of my families I work with a child with ADHD will say he has ADHD, so we don't really try to do any rules.

We know how his brain works. I'm like, oh no, he's the guy who needs more rules. He needs more, or boundaries, more systems. His brain doesn't make the system, his brain doesn't go with the system. He needs an external system because he doesn't. And maybe with your anxiety in the middle of the night, you didn't have an internal system that knew what to do.

You needed your dad to give you an external one.

Nancy: I absolutely loved this conversation with Renee. She provides so many concrete suggestions and examples. In fact, we had so much information. We had to divide this episode into two parts. Part two will be here next week.

---

Episode 142: Finding Freedom Through Our Personal Stories

In today’s episode, I am talking with Hillary Rea, storyteller, podcaster, and founder of Tell Me a Story about the stories we tell ourselves.

In the self-help/personal development world, the idea of stories—and the stories we tell ourselves—is seen as a negative thing. 

The message is: if we were better people, then we would know all of our “stories”—and if we are honest about them, they wouldn’t get in our way and hold us back from living our full potential. 

Instead, we could change our limiting beliefs by simply “changing the story.” 

That phrase drives me crazy. As if it’s that easy to change your story! 

And while the self-help world might portray stories as a challenge to overcome or as an opportunity to rewrite, I have always seen it differently: stories are what make us the amazing, unique humans that we are. 

Today, I’m so excited to introduce Hillary Rea to you. She is a storyteller by trade and has a refreshingly different take on the stories that we tell ourselves, the stories we tell about ourselves to others, and the stories that others tell about us. 

Hillary is the founder of Tell Me A Story, a full-service communication consulting business that trains entrepreneurs, leaders, and change-makers to use the art of storytelling as a powerful communication tool. She is also the producer and host of Rashomon, a narrative storytelling podcast in which one family shares every side of the same story.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How our stories play a role in our lives and how Hillary has found that telling them NOT changing them is how we find freedom

• How telling our stories helps us build self-loyalty which is key to dealing with our high functioning anxiety

• Her love of storytelling and why it is so important to her and the larger world

• What Joseph Campbell’s Hero Journey might be lacking in and what Hillary teaches about the 5 facets of storytelling

Resources mentioned:

• tellmeastory.info

• Join the Speak Up Newsletter

• Rashomon Podcast

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Hillary: I've really come to the realization that there's stories we tell ourselves. And there are the stories that other people tell about us or on our behalf. And there are the stories we tell others. And I think that the more we can find alignment between those three different types of stories that are told that's where the freedom

Nancy: in the self-help personal development world, the idea of stories and the stories we tell ourselves is seen as a negative thing.

The messages, if we were better people than we would already know all of our stories. And when we're honest about the stories, they won't get in our way and hold us back. But my guest today, Hillary Rea, a storyteller by trade has a refreshing different take on storytelling and the stories we tell ourselves.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

So you might be wondering what does storytelling have to do with high functioning anxiety? I'm so glad you asked the phrase, change your story has always driven me crazy. We're told to change our limiting beliefs by changing our story as if it's that easy to just poof change your story and stories are what make us the unique, amazing human beings. We are. This is why I was so excited when Hillary and I struck up a conversation about this very topic, and then she asked if she could come on the show.

And I was like, yes, this conversation is going to be awesome. From her first time, performing standup comedy to winning a moth story slam to realizing the power of storytelling in the workplace. Hillary Rea is an expert in the art of using personal experience to build trust, inspire, and help people understand each other.

On a deeper level. Hillary is a graduate of New York University Steinhardt school with a bachelor of music in vocal performance and holds a certificate in audio documentary from duke university center for documentary studies. She's also the producer and host of Rashomon a narrative storytelling podcast in which one, family shares every side of the same story.

Whether you're looking to grow your personal or professional network need to effectively tell the story of your new business or simply need to boost your confidence, Hillary and her team at tell me a story will help you find your voice and share your unique story with honesty and passion.

In this episode, Hillary and I talk about how our stories play a role in our lives. And how Hillary has found that telling them not changing them is how we find freedom. How telling our stories helps us build self loyalty, which is key to dealing with our high-functioning anxiety. Hilary's love of storytelling and why it is so important to her and the larger world and why Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, which we've all heard might be lacking.

And what Hillary teaches about the five facets of storytelling. Okay. I am so excited today to have Hillary Ray here to talk to us about storytelling. Welcome Hillary.

Hillary: Thanks Nancy. I'm really happy to be here.

Nancy: So Hillary reached out to me after we'd had a conversation on a forum about the use of the term stories.

When it comes to negative things, we tell ourselves so often in the self-help world, we hear that phrase. Just change your story. And if you've been following me for awhile, you know what, that, that drives me crazy. And it turns out it also drives Hillary crazy as well. And she's actually a storytelling expert.

So that makes me feel even better that it drives me crazy. So I wanted to bring her on to talk about that concept and a few others related to the stories we tell ourselves. So Hillary, given that introduction, how do our stories play a role in our lives? And how have you found that telling them is how we can find freedom?

Hillary: Yeah. So as I've been thinking a lot about this, I would say over the last handful of months, and then every time I do read or see a social media post saying, change your story, or it's all the stories we're telling ourselves, I get fired up. So I've really come to the realization that there's stories we tell ourselves.

And there are the stories that other people about us or on our behalf. And there are the stories we tell others. And I think that the more we can find alignment between those three different types of stories that are told that's where the freedom lies. And I think the one that we should really focus on is not the story we tell ourself, but the story we tell other people and ultimately that will lead to that reframe the internal narrative that so many self-help people talk about and is the reason behind a lot of our problems.

Like stories that we, and I'm doing air quotes,, like the diagnosis is always, oh, your problem is because of the story you're telling yourself. And yeah, I just don't think necessarily that those are always stories or real stories. And then I think if we focus on the story, we tell other people that will lead to a better story that we tell ourselves and an actual story that we're telling ourselves versus this idea of a story.

Nancy: Okay. So like in the forum, in this thing we were talking about, it was the idea of playing small and the concept was, that's a story we tell ourselves to play small. So using that example, Walk us through what you're talking about, if that's okay.

Hillary: Sure. So I'm going to just put myself in the shoes of that feeling.

So I'm, I feel like I'm playing small or I'm not showing up in the world, whether that's personally professionally on the internet. So I must be small and there's nothing I can do about it, or it feels safe to be small. So I'm just going to stay smaller. So to me, that's not a story to me, that's an idea or an emotional state or sometimes a cultural implication.

It's an external thing that I'm thinking is happening to me this feeling of being small. So yes, I could maybe work with a therapist or work with a coach and kind of dig into that and see what stories or life experiences I had that got me to that feeling of small. Again, this is theoretical me.

I don't have, I've felt small in my life. I'm not saying I've never felt small, but I would then have to find, okay, maybe I got teased in second grade and I can dive deeper into that story and go into specific details, create the beginning, middle, and end around that. And maybe that will then help me to reframe that idea of being small and take the steps to being bigger or to taking up space in the world.

However, I think just by putting myself out there. So I don't, I'm trying to figure out the best way to explain it because it's not, obviously there's a lot of layers to feeling small, but if I am thinking of a story that I want to share with someone else, whether that's one person or. For example, I run a company.

So a story, I want to share on my newsletter each week or a story that I want to share when I'm hosting a live storytelling event. If I can think of that story and the purpose for why I want to share it with people and craft the beginning, middle and end of that experience, I want to share and bring it to life in a super fun and engaging way with lots of details.

And I like to infuse humor, things like that. Then by sharing that story with my audience, whether that's an audience of one or an audience of many, I'm taking a space and I'm putting myself out there and there's this feeling that happens when you do that. And when there is an audience on the other side, listening to you, even if you can't see them or hear them, that gives you that freedom and helps you I don't know. Yeah. Take up space without being like, hello world. I'm here. Dad's handing your way through life. If that's not your style. I hope that makes sense.

Nancy: So you discover through therapy or whatever that, the story, the limiting belief of I'm small, that story comes from something that happened in childhood, perhaps in your example that you made up, then that's the story.

That's the story that when we share to the audience of one or a hundred in person or not, that then starts flushing out the problem.

Hillary:. Yes. But I would like to add that it is in our power to share what stories we want to share so that doesn't have to be the story you would tell your audience.

And I think I can give an example from. I can put together a real life example and see if this go thread. So there was always this lore and it did happen to me, but I dwelled on it since the age of 12 that I was at a friend's house hanging out in her room. So at 12, I liked to wear a lot of vinyl.

So I had a vinyl dress. I had vinyl pants, I had vinyl platform shoes. I had silver mini skirt. I looked like a nineties, future punk rocker. And I was obsessed with clothes. I was obsessed with curating these outfits and I wasn't wearing a vinyl dress the day that this happened, but I owned this vinyl dress that I wore to school.

And I was at a friend's house. And her mom also happened to be a teacher at this very small school that we went to. And an adult friend of her mom was there. And so they peeked their heads into the door of my friend's room and we're sitting there hanging out and the mom's friend wanted to say hi, The daughter.

And then the mom introduced me and said, this is Hillary. She likes to wear trash bags.

Nancy: Oh ,My!

Hillary:. it was this little moment, that I know what she was getting at. It was a vinyl dress that I wore to school, but it wasn't trash bags. But for some reason I let that statement haunt me for forever. Since that happened and I still care a lot about clothing, I'm still very passionate about fashion.

And I think any time I'm less willing to take those fashion risks as an adult. It's because I can hear that voice or hear that replay, that specific experience back in my mind, however, a couple of months ago I purchased this rainbow knit sweater on the internet. I fell in love with it. It was on sale.

It was like this big oversized multi-colored striped sweater. And I remember I wanted to wear it. Like on a date with my boyfriend and in my head, I got that little voice. Like she wears trashbags voice and I didn't put it on. I just wore like gray, which is also my go to.

And then I posted about it on social media. And I posted about it on my company, social media, because of it was a story connected to fashion and it was a story connected to my identity and a story about what happened when I did actually wear that sweater. How did I feel? I heard that story with an audience and not only did people respond in the Instagram post, but I also like the next time I was in an in-person event with people that had read that Instagram posts, they brought up the sweater and said that had made them think of a coat. They had that they were too scared to wear like a very surface level thing, but in sharing a version of the story, that made sense for me, that made me feel good about myself.

I was able to connect with my audience and also rewrite that feeling of she wears trash bags.

Nancy: So it wasn't sharing the story of the woman who said she wears trash bags. It was sharing the story of how you felt wearing debating about the rainbow sweater and then eventually wearing it.

Hillary: Yes. I might have mentioned it in passing, but that, wasn't the main point of the story at all,

Nancy: which is fascinating because.

I assume like in the example I gave, it was the original story, but that has nothing to do with it. In storytelling, in healing, these stories, it's telling the story at a variety of places. In the story, I'm saying a variety of places of how that story makes you feel.

Hillary: Yeah. I guess to clarify, I think it is okay if you are able to dig deep and find the stories underneath the self-limiting belief and it, and by story, it has a beginning, middle and end, and you're sharing your perspective either in the moment when it happened to you or as you remember it.

Now, I think sharing that story is okay. Especially if it's like a confidant or someone you care about deeply or a therapist or a coach or things like that. But I think that there's this pressure, especially in when in a leadership role or when running your own business, either how you represent yourself on social media or how you represent yourself in interpersonal communication, that there's this pressure that you have to share those deepest, darkest woundy story.

And honestly, and I think that fear holds people back from sharing anything at all, or holds people back from trusting that they, as a human being are enough and okay and worth taking up space and not being small. And so my, and what I believe in how I work with people is okay, yes. Maybe those stories are there, but what are the stories that you feel most passionate about telling?

And that doesn't mean it has to be like a happy, joyful story, but what are the stories that align with who you are, what you do and why you do it and all of the, your vision and values and everything, like finding alignment between the story you tell and who you are as a human being.

Nancy: So it's not about dwelling in the stories, the negative stories that as you say, aren't stories, because they don't have a beginning and a middle and an end, but concentrating on what's the story that serves not even serves me.

Hillary: I think it is the story that serves you.

Nancy: Is it serves? Okay.

Hillary: I think it’s serves because the question I always ask is what story serves me in the present moment.

Nancy: Oh, okay. Okay. Yes. Because I was like serves me to me, sounded like a spin on it, like I'm going to put a positive spin on it, but that isn't how you're using serves.

Hillary: No. And I think it also goes back to the focusing on the stories we tell other people as our starting point, versus focusing on the story, we tell ourselves and trying to reframe that in its own inner turmoil, you kind of way, and also to focus less on that idea of the stories other people tell about you, which can also look like, oh, I want to be perceived a certain way, or I want this person to think of me as this and the most terrifying truth that there is that you can't control how that person is perceiving you or your story.

And you can't control what they're thinking about it, even if you hit a message hard or tried to say and the reason I'm telling you this you still can’t control that. So there's no reason to focus on that. The stories people are telling about you. So why not focus on the stories? You can tell other people and that kind of take care, takes care of the story that people tell about you and takes care of that story that you tell yourself.

Nancy: So if you so in the example you gave about the rainbow sweater, did that loosen up the, she wears trash bags.

Hillary: Yeah. I guess, in an ideal world, I would say I haven't thought about it,

Hillary: But, and I feel like I'm in a unique time in that I'm not thinking of fashion so much at the moment because of, I don't, also, should I even, yeah, because we're

Nancy: recording this during the pandemic.

Hillary: Yeah, totally. Okay. So yeah, I'm not thinking about my clothing as much as I normally do, if I'm able to go out into the world. And again, that's not because I want, I care about what other people are thinking about my clothing. It's just how I get dressed to go out into the world right way.

I haven't really thought of that time just because now I have this rainbow sweater story and the rainbow sweater story has come up again. Because it actually, it was two Instagram posts. In an installment of my newsletter that shared this morning. And then since then, every time I put that sweater on, I get the feeling of sharing that story.

Nancy: When in the past it would have been the trash bag story.

Hillary: Correct.

Nancy: Got it. That is awesome. Okay. That makes a ton of sense.

So then let's back up a little bit. How did you become so interested in stories and storytelling?

Hillary: Yeah. About 10 years ago, I knew I wanted to try comedy because I knew I could make people laugh in my everyday life.

It was, it's something I prided myself on and I didn't have to, it wasn't like effortful. I just could do it. And it felt good. And my background was in theater, but I. Never really enjoyed being a character. Like I, I would create like backstories for characters, especially when singing songs for musical theater, because my background was in musical theater.

I would create these backstories that weren't so much the backstory of the play or the musical, but something in my head that would help me tell the story of that song in an authentic way. And so that gave me joy expressing myself in some way, gave me joy, but being characters made me anxious and made me insecure and made me scared to get up in front of people.

But for some reason, comedy, didn’t feel scary or it felt so unknown to me that I'm like I just have to try I don't know what I'm doing. And so I did, and I went, and it was an experimental comedy show that was in an art gallery. And I brought my own laugh track and it was on a, I believe it was on a CD in 2009 or my iPod, but I handed it over to a friend and I said, Hey, can you just play this whenever you feel you want to?

Or if I feel like, if you feel like no on, one's laughing and they should be, can you play it? And so he did. And then that sort of became an additional joke because I had no control over how the audience was going to respond when that was going to happen. I only had control over what I was sharing. And even though in my head, I'm like, oh, I think I'm doing stand-up comedy.

I really shared a story from my life that had a beginning, middle and end. So I would say that was the first. Step into Ooh, I like this idea of telling a story from my life in front of an audience, not because of how the audience would respond, but how it made me feel like that taking up space, finding freedom, which I don't think I had felt for a very long time, just because of I guess the age I was, at that point, like late twenties, but just like feeling, not myself ever since I went to college for performing, which actually made me shut down and made me feel like I never wanted to perform again. Wow. So that was the first step. And then I stumbled across a competitive storytelling shows that were in Philadelphia and then also in New York.

And so I started going to those and for those, it was interesting because you show up, you put your name in a bag, but they only pick out 10 names. So you never actually know if you're going to get picked until the moment before that was so terrifying because I could prepare all I wanted to at home and I did, but I would never know, A if I was going to get picked or B when.

And so when it happened, the very first one, I went to, my name got picked up first. I didn't even get to see an example of all about, I'd never even gone to the show before, but almost that lack of control. Again, took me to that space where yeah, I was terrified but it went away as soon as I was up there.

And in my story, and in the experience I was sharing, which was a story about failing my driving driver's license test at age 24 and having to pee in this wooded area because I was nervous. Like it was, again, a silly story, but I walked away just feeling really good about sharing it. And I, and those types of events had judges and there were scores and I didn't win and I didn't win for years.

And that it wasn't about that. Again, it was like the taking up space and the feeling free and who I was and aligned with who I was in that present moment and the story I was sharing in that present moment.

Nancy: So the act of telling stories, just helps us see ourselves and get a different response from other people than we're playing in our brains.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think the thing is, again, you don't know what response you're going to get from other people. And so it, to me every time, even now, when it's easier for me to get up in front of people and I use storytelling in my everyday communication. So it's easier for me to just launch into stories naturally, but there's always that little bit of jumping off.

It feels like I'm jumping off a cliff. I've never done that. I've never gone bungee jumping or skydiving, but in my head it feels like I'm jumping out of an airplane and flying through the air because I can't control. I know I'll land, first of all, but I can't control. What happens besides just landing and besides sharing what I felt compelled to share in that moment.

And I would say 99.9% of the time, it lands in a super compelling, connected, positive way, even if it's not a positive story. And again, it's not about finding the stories that are the funniest or the stories that are the happiest or the stories that are the craziest thing that's ever happened to you. It just trusting that exchange between you telling the story and the person that's so generously listening to your story is enough.

And it is true and deep

Nancy: Because the idea of change your story kind of demonizes stories. By how you say it, which I think I'd never thought about that until just talking with you. That's what I, that's what bugs me about it because, I can remember when my dad died and it was months later and I said something about how hard it was and that my mom was really struggling.

And a friend said that's just a story that it's hard. You can change that. And I remember thinking to myself, but I want, that's a good story. That's a story that shows how much I love my dad. So I don't want to change that story. Like these stories make up who I am.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think that you don't have to change.

And I think it's, again, what story serving you in the present moment and finding the why behind sharing that story? So the way you just said that now is that's your story, you're taking ownership of it and you're telling it from your perspective, the response you got is someone telling a story about you.

Nancy: Ah, yes, I see. Okay. Yeah. And even that story mean the story that I shared there now we're going to get metta on story. The story I shared was about being my friend, but the story I was sharing with her that was just. A belief on how hard it was, but I wasn't, in my mind, I had a story it's hard because my dad is gone and I love him so much.

And he was amazing. And this way, and I can build up a beginning in the middle and an end to that. And now, and I'm thinking, talking and thinking at the same time, but maybe if I had shared the full story with her of that beginning, middle and end of my relationship with my dad, she wouldn't have said we need to change your story.

Hillary: Yeah. I would say that's probably the case

Nancy: because that's the power in sharing the story. Is you get the full picture,

Hillary: you got the full picture and just the simple structure. If we think of, because there's many definitions of story, as we were talking about, and there's many different ways that stories go out into the world, there's fictional books, there's podcasts, there's film, there's all their stories are everywhere.

So when you said, if I had told the full story, I think that would have stopped her from saying the thing that she said about you. So I think the reason that she would stop that is because you share not only because of the story you shared, but because of the structure of the story, which is no matter what form it takes place, like book, movie podcast, speaking to someone, a story always has a beginning, middle and end.

We learn from the time we're six years old. So I think that's finding, it's not only finding the story that you want to tell, but telling it with a beginning, middle and end structure. And that's what gets the story that someone's telling about you or the belief that someone's putting on you or perception that will help dissipate that or dissolve that because you've shared a complete story.

Nancy: Ah, I'm so glad you came back to that because that is really helpful. So to the same degree then, would you say that because that you had said I hate the idea of just change your story, because it's not a complete story. Does it have a beginning, middle and end, but if I can come up with my beginning, middle and end would that help me?

That might help me change the story because I would see it differently regardless of who I'm sharing it with.

Hillary: Yes. So I think first it's key to focus on the stories that you want to share with other people. And then when you have those stories, like the one that you gave an example of is doing the work as much in advance, as you can, sometimes stories just happen off the cuff in the moment to find the beginning, middle and end of that experience.

And that's what, how it comes together in story form. Got it. Okay.

Nancy: That's really okay. I think that's really helpful. The other thing I don't like about the change, your story, because I didn't realize, because it is chopping off my story but I can change that story.

I can change that story is not what I wanted to say. I can see that story differently by giving it a beginning, a middle and an end and not just being like, oh, I suck at blank, but being like what's the beginning and middle and end of that, what's the story. Full board. Yeah.

Hillary: I think it's finding the story, finding its structure and the word, finding your perspective in the moment, because that's always going to change as well.

Yes, absolutely.

Nancy: Yeah. And that they'll keep changing because even the story of the trash bag, she loves trash bags continued to change as you get older,

Hillary: I think it's funny. Whereas for so long I was deeply upset about it.

Nancy: Yeah. Because now you could see a different You could see the different perspective of, you're not seeing it as a16 year old. You can see it as an adult as well. And about fashion. It just has a lot more to it than just the, I think, because I think so often the messages we're telling ourselves are not fully formed. There's no structure they're just loose and we just believe them. And if we take some time to develop some structure and create a beginning, middle and end story, and then share that story, we can loosen some of the stuff up.

Yes. Okay.

Hillary: That is

Nancy: helpful. We've all heard the idea of the hero's journey. And when I think of the hero's journey, I immediately think of like Harry Potter that Joseph Campbell. Started, I believe he started it. And I know you have a different idea around that and you have different elements that you bring to the storytelling.

So can you talk about the hero's journey and then talk about what you learned?

Hillary: Sure. So I think beginning, middle and end is standard across, no matter what philosophy on storytelling you take. But I used out first, I'll talk through Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, and this is very loose. Cliff notes thing.

So it's that there is a hero and it's usually a man and he's has something going on. He's in one state at the beginning of the story, and then there's something called an inciting incident. So something sets him off on his journey. And through that journey, he encounters many obstacles, many challenges, there's usually a temptress or a villain or things like that.

And then, so there's rising tension, which is the other, a Campbell word. After that inciting incident journey, journey, and then there's like this ultimate climactic moment where something happens. There's some big turning point change. Maybe like a big action event, a fight, something like that.

And then there's the resolution at the end. And the main thing is that the hero is now a different person at the end of the story that they were at the beginning of the story. It's like the standard thing it's ingrained in so much of everything that we consume and have consumed since 1949 when humbled laid that out on paper.

And probably since before that, even, and I always call all those little bits and pieces story ingredients, like the inciting incident, the rising action, the climax, the, and I always have thought those things through, not as I'm crafting my story, but maybe after the fact and in teaching storytelling to other people.

But there was a moment where I started to feel like actually. Things that are more important before you like dissect your story to make sure that it has those things. And also not every story has those things. And that doesn't mean that it's not a good story. And there's so many other ways that a story can unfold.

And that specifically a first person story, which I call personal narrative can unfold. Like we don't, we're not always on the hero's journey, but it doesn't discount that the other things that have happened to us aren't valid or valuable or worth sharing with other people. Basically, because of showing up to a corporate storytelling training, which I used to do a lot of, and seeing that laid out in front of all the participants was this card with storytelling tips.

That was from a different company, not mine. That included a lot of those Joseph Campbell ingredients, so that I show up to this event to teach, but on the table as part of their supplies of this other person’s, sort of definition of story and including these ingredients. And I was like, Hey, in my head, I'm like, I don't really agree with this and this isn't what I'm about to teach.

This is weird that this is here. So after that event, I was like, I need to put my ingredients or what I now call elements down on paper. Yes. Yes. I always believed, but I just hadn't officialized it. Thanks to that, that awkward moment in that event where I was presenting, I put it down on paper. So I call it the five key elements of personal narrative.

And I think that's where I different that there's again, we've said the word story 5 million times, I think focusing and reframing it as personal narrative, especially when you're focused on sharing a story from your life to an audience of one of a hundred, whatever that audience is, it's personal narrative.

And so I'll say all five and then I can talk through. So the five key elements of personal narrative are one your origin story to ownership three beyond the blazer for reciprocity. And five scars over wounds. So I can just give a quick rundown. Yeah. So I think the first element is a really great starting point for anyone who's what story do I have to tell?

What story serves me in the present moment is identifying your origin story. And so that answers the question. How did you get to where you are now? And that's an ever evolving question, right? With an ever evolving answer. So making sure. That you revisit that question and find the story that serves you in the present moment, and that it's not a matter of telling your full life story that got you to the moment where you are now, but finding like zooming in on those smaller moments that illuminate that big story of where you are now?

And in that answers the questions. How did you get your super powers? Because origin stories play a really big part in comic books. And it's always the story of how the superhero got their super power. But if we can think, and again this goes more into the internal story.

Like the story we're telling ourselves, if we can tune in to those super powers that we have, whether that's our values, our strengths, our talents our worldview finding the origin story that aligns with that is. Gives you again, lets you move into a bigger space. Lets you take up space in a truly authentic, genuine way.

So that's origin story.

Nancy: I have a quick question about origin. So that could be if I were anything, I know this is personal narrative, so it's not but if I were like trying to find the origin story for my company, that would, I could ask the same question or the origin story for my story as a mother or my story as a wife or my story as a daughter or just my story,

Hillary: all of the above. I think you can have multiple origin stories and I think.

Even when it's the story of your company and if your company is multiple people or has many moving parts, still finding your journey into that role, into that experience is valid and should be shared even if there's other people involved.

Nancy: Great. That's helpful. Okay. So then next is ownership.

Hillary: Yes. So we've talked about this a little bit already, and maybe just not using the word ownership, but it's. Choosing the story that you want to share with somebody else and making sure that it's told from your perspective through your lens. And so that if for some reason, someone were to go and try to tell your story for you to someone else or retell your story, that because you took, you can't control that.

So because you took ownership of it and you're taking ownership, not only of what happened to you, but how you're sharing it with your audience, then chances are, it will be told in a way that aligns with the story by someone else.

Nancy: So Brené Brown does a really good job of owning her stories because when I, if I retell them, but they're for her, it's from her perspective, is that what you're saying?

Hillary: Yes. Okay. I would say we never, again, we never can control if someone's going to tell a story about us, either back to us or to someone else, but we can control what story we tell and how we tell it. And that to me is taking ownership over not only the experience when it happened to you in your life, because again, this is personal narrative.

So taking ownership over that experience. So maybe Hillary in my story that I'm telling is different from me now telling that story, and I'm going to talk about those differences and maybe there were things in that story I'm not proud of, but I can tell it from my perspective, through my lens and my worldview, and maybe that does bring humor into it, or maybe.

Brings shock and heart to how that Hillary behaved in the story. And so as the teller, I'm taking ownership that yes, that's who I was in that story. And that's how and what happened. But here's how I'm also sharing it with you now, as someone on the other side of that,

Nancy: and that's really what makes the story gritty and believable, that's what makes it because I'm a therapist, so I would say that, but that's what makes it like juicy and rich.

Yeah. You could tell the difference if someone hasn't taken ownership of their story, it's told from a distance as opposed to being in it.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think Brené, Brown's use of ownership too. Is that rumbling with your story idea? Maybe you found the story you want to tell, and maybe you weren't your best idea of best self in that story.

Or there were things in that story that are vulnerable to share or, yeah, it might be uncomfortable for some people, but when you rumble, she uses the word rumble, with that story, and then once you do that, if you're like, yes, I still want to tell that to somebody to me that's when my definition of ownership comes in.

Ownership of that, and just going forward with it and believing wholeheartedly that's the story you should tell.

Nancy: Okay. Got it. Yeah, that's cool. I like that addition to the elements from the hero's journey. Okay, so what's next,

Hillary: next is beyond the blazer. And this came to be because of how I showed up in the world and how I noticed other people were showing up in the world in all aspects of my life, friends, acquaintances, colleagues, and also people that I've worked with on their storytelling is feeling that we have to be initially people feeling like we have to be two separate identities.

There's the personal persona and the professional persona. And no matter what industry you're in or what type of work that you do, that they don't intersect. And that, and there's ways that we behave personally. There's ways that we behave professionally. And what I noticed is that I was hiding behind wearing a blazer.

So when I, and this was specifically when I started teaching storytelling in corporate environments, which I no longer do, but I was, going in and doing a lot of professional development training. And I had never had a corporate job. I just had an idea of what a corporate job meant and an idea of what a corporate job meant for a woman like these general ideas.

And so I thought in order for these people to see me as an expert and to see me as a professional and to see me as. Professional that they paid money to, I must show up in a blazer. And what I was doing was hiding in that blazer, not showing up as my full self personality wise and not teaching, like not giving my expertise fully or giving like I all the whole time I was checking am I acting appropriately for this company culture?

When honestly, I didn't even know anything about the company. And this is the idea of storytelling I think they want to hear. So maybe this one, and again, this is me all like looking back.

Nancy: Yeah. But fulfilling some imaginary persona.

Hillary: . Idea. Yeah. And then any time anything came out, like in those blazer moments where it was like, oh, you used to do standup comedy or, oh, you lived in Japan.

Oh, you studied musical theater. I would laugh and be like, ha yes. And then move on to the next thing. Instead of using those life experiences to inform the work that I was doing. And so all of that and noticing how that played out for other people, like seeing blazer, persona client of mine and personal persona client of mine.

By sharing our stories and sharing stories from all aspects of our life and from all stages of our life experiences, we're integrating the personal and professional. So maybe there are stories that we want to tell for our professional audiences, whether that's us running our own business or leading a team at a big, bigger company, but why not find a story from a different aspect of your life to share that maybe ties to the message of the work that you're doing or ties to the brand or the overall idea.

And it's that integration that makes us feel fully ourselves outside of that storytelling moment as well.

Nancy: Oh yes. I could see that. Yeah. And I think, I could totally see that happening in business, like even the stories I tell on stage, the best stories I tell on stage are personal.

You know where I'm not doing that, but the temptation to do that as strong one and two, I think we do that in just in our world. Like this I'm going to, I'm not going to tell the story at the PTA because this story is it appropriate for that persona, even though if I want to show up as an authentic human being, I need to be, the best stories or whatever stories appropriate, not based on the persona.

Hillary: Yeah. And now I'm going to go back to what I said about you. You can have multiple origin stories because I still do believe that, but I do believe that origin stories should integrate the personal and professional. It should have this beyond the blazer concept in it. Because you brought up that analogy of the PTA.

So maybe there's a how I am a mother origin story, but I still think that can encapsulate other aspects of who you are and what you've experienced. So I think actually if someone's listening to this and they're like, oh great, I need six origin stories. Now I challenge you to actually start with one and then maybe it shifts depending on who your audience is.

But the core of that story is the same. And I've had multiple origin stories in that. Some have served me two years ago and the story I used as the example of how I got to where I was two years ago it's still a story I can share in another context, but maybe isn't my origin story at the moment.

Nancy: I got it.

Yes. Yeah. So even if I'm doing, like I said, oh, this is the story of how I became a mother. This is the, my origin story as a mother, that's still encapsulating all the years before I was a mother.

Hillary: I think, and it's again, not about telling the full story. I just think you don't have to limit yourself to the idea of this as the story, a linear way of getting to how you became a mother.

Nancy: Got it. Yes. So we need to be moving back to one. The origin is the general origin of who we are, how we got here.

Hillary. It doesn't have to be general, I guess what I'm trying to say.

Nancy: I am confusing it more. I had it. And then I tried to clarify and I got it worse.

Hillary: That's okay. I guess all of the elements connect to each other.

In thinking beyond the blazer, in context of any story that you want to tell someone else, it also applies to your origin story. And so I did respond with an enthusiastic yes. When you said, so you can have multiple origin stories. And I was like, yes, that's true. But I would challenge anyone that's curious about finding their origin story to start with one and see what happens.

See if it can be, it can answer that question in a multitude of ways.

Nancy: I see. Oh yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Okay. So then what's the next step? We did origin ownership beyond the blazer.

Hillary: So element number four is reciprocity and. There. I think that there's a difference between, have I got a story for you?

And it's this idea of, I'm just going to talk at this person listening to me and, my story is going to go onto the ether and then dissolve into the air or something. And so it's like expelling a lot of energy out when you're sharing a story and I'm sure that feels exhausting and doesn't feel like you don't feel aligned with the story.

And it's just words it's being talked at. But reciprocity into storytelling is really important because not only is it. The storyteller who's sharing the story. There is a listening ear or ears on the receiving end that are taking that story. They're deeply listening. They're translating your experience into something from their own life to make sense of it and to create that feeling of connection that happens when we share and listen to stories.

And also by taking ownership and showing up and telling your story, you're actually allowing the listener. To think of what stories they want to share in return. And it's almost an invitation for them to share a story, even if not in that moment. Yes. Okay.

Nancy: I love that.

Hillary: Yeah. Yeah. And so always thinking of it as an exchange that you're giving your story to someone and that they're receiving it, but then not that you can control how it's going to be received, but just that there's an exchange and a connection.

To me, it, it evens the playing field. Like we're all at the same level. When we hear a story and share a story, because we're all human. It humanizes it

Nancy: because I liked the idea of not talking at because we have all heard stories where people are just talking, just in everyday conversation where people are talking at us and not engaging us.

Hillary: Yeah. And I think that also comes from not wanting to listen in return. And I think in sharing a story, you also have to be open and willing to listen and return. Even if it doesn't happen in that exact moment,

Nancy: you said the deeply listening. That was part of that. I circled in that the listener needs to be deeply listening, you know?

Hillary: Yeah. And there's all of this science. I don't have all of the facts and figures to go into it fully, but there's all of the science around storytelling where they've hooked up things to the brains of people, listening to stories and people telling stories. And that when an audience is deeply listening and when a storyteller is deeply telling a story that a brainwave patterns sync up.

And I think their original study for that was done at Princeton.,

Nancy: Wow. That is fascinating. Okay. So now we're onto the fifth, right?

Hillary: So the fifth key element of personal narrative is scars over wounds. And I think that's ties back to everything that we talked about at the very beginning of our conversation in that there are some things that have happened to us in life are our life.

I refer to life experiences as what's happened to us before it takes story form, we can choose, we can pick and choose from those life experiences to then create that beginning, middle, and end and craft the narrative around that life experience. So always there are going to be life experiences that we've all had that are in wound phase.

They're raw. They're rough. We haven't processed them. We don't know if we feel comfortable sharing them. We don't even know if we feel comfortable tackling them internally or anything. And that's okay. And you don't have to share something that's happened to you and make it a story in wound phase or wound form.

What are those stories that are in the scar phase? So at something, again, this could be something that maybe felt really awful and tragic at the time, but we now have this new perspective of humor on it, or just the fact that we're so much older or even there are some things that scar up quickly. So something that could have happened three weeks ago phase.

Acknowledge that you have those life experiences that are still in wound stage, but you can say, all right, I'll see you later when you've scarred up. And then we can talk to each other as a story. And so finding the stories from that scar stage is much more powerful, both for you as the teller, but also for the listener, because you're not putting this unraveling of it's like a vulnerability hangover. I think we are in the, and there's always this pressure of, I have to be vulnerable. I have to be true and authentic, and there's ways to do that without dumping the weight of something on someone else or on yourself. And it's, to me more powerful when you can tell, find those stories that are in the scar phase,

Nancy: because when we tell a story that's in the wound phase, especially in a professional setting we're asking people to take care of we're they feel the need to take care of us and boost us up and make us feel better when we're telling the story from a Scar phase. We've done that work already and I could see it. So that's, what's more powerful.

Hillary: And the, where I got this concept from was Catherine Burns, who was the artistic director for the moth, which is a big national storytelling organization. And she wrote this manifesto on storytelling a while ago, many years ago.

And there was just one simple sentence that said, tell your stories from your scars, not your wounds. And so I took that sentence and translated it into this bigger idea. And I would also say that maybe that's where a lot of the coach therapy talk of self-help talk of, that's just a story you're telling yourself is really still in wound phase.

And so it's, and it's not a story. So whether it is an unprocessed experience or. An emotion or a cultural implication or all those things, whatever it is when someone's changed that retell, that chances are, it's still a wound and that’s detrimental to both you and anyone that you're going to share that with.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And so then just dismissing that as, oh, I need to change that then you never get to the point where it's a scar.

Hillary: Exactly. That's a really, I never thought about that until just now. Yeah.

Nancy: So that's yeah, that's interesting. I love this. I love your five. Your five elements, because I think, it's obviously it's so much more in depth than the hero's journey.

And I think, I think if Joseph Campbell knew how much that would be beaten into the ground, he might've thought it through differently. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it just is that's the only way. And so I like that you're bringing in another way. And I think that storytelling, this was, when you approached me to do this interview, I was like, this is why I wanted to do this podcast because I wanted to bring in different not just self-helpy people that are talking about the same thing, but people that have a different take on the same stuff.

We talk about all the time and storytelling and how we tell our stories is just so powerful. I love this work that you're doing and that you were willing to come here and share it in this form. Because I think it's really impactful for my listeners to hear it. Not only to apply in their business worlds, but in their everyday life.

Hillary: One thing. I love that you brought up Nancy outside of this time that we're meeting now is how you defined monger BFF and biggest fan in relation to how I defined stories. We tell ourselves stories that other people tell about us and the stories we tell others. I talk about that a lot.

So yeah, I think, again, it all goes back to. The difference between the stories we tell ourselves, the stories other people tell about us and the stories we tell other people, and that to focus on the story, we tell other people lift the weight or negativity or evilness of story of the other two and in how I think it connects with your terminology, Nancy and your work, which I so deeply admire is that to me, the, and you helped me come to this conclusion that the story that we tell ourselves can be the monger, and that the stories other people tell about us, that can be the BFF stories we tell other people that's the big yes. Fan.

Nancy: Yes. That's really well said. Thank you. I liked that. Yeah. I hadn't thought about it like that at all, but that's true. Now I'm going to have to spin on that for a little bit. Leave us with something to think about. I love it

Hillary: I don't know. You don't necessarily have to keep that in the interview, but

Nancy: no, I think that's really helpful, just also just to bring my work into the whole thing, I think, yeah, I think that's awesome. Okay. So tell us where people can find you, what you're working on, that, all that good stuff.

Hillary: Yes. So the best place to find me is on my company's website. And so it's TellMeAStory. And what I'm working on is working with clients virtually, which I never did before, but now in a world where that was forced upon me, but I'm actually so thrilled about working with clients in this way.

And I think it allows clients to go deeper. It allows me to challenge the way we're communicating when there's a screen in between us and how we can bring that in-person energy and that true connection, how we can get that to transcend a digital conversation. Oh, cool. Yeah. Yeah. So that's it.

Nancy: Okay. And you help people figure out what their stories are to share in their business for branding?

Hillary: Yeah, so I guess the way I would put it is that I work with. Entrepreneurs and leaders and those looking to leave a bigger footprint on the world, what story will serve them in the present moment. So helping them brainstorm what that story is, helping them craft that story, and then depending how much they need giving them the push to put that story out and make sure that there's an audience for them to share it.

Yes. So whether that is for business or I produce a live storytelling event. So sometimes it's just a matter of getting people up in front of that kind of audience and telling the story that way. But yeah, I would say most people work on personal narrative with me for professional reasons, but there's personal impact as well.

And then

Nancy: the life story event, you have taken that to be online as well. When is the next, is the next. June 17th, I believe

Hillary: . Yes

Nancy: Okay. They can find that information on your website, but they join that virtually. Yeah. And watch it. Okay. Because I want to, I need to find that out myself. I would like to tune in.

Okay, awesome. And thank you so much for being willing to come on here and share this, your elements and your information on story. Because I think it's really helpful, because that is something we all do, sharing stories and how we can fine tune that to help ourselves and help others is incredible.

Hillary: Yeah. And they're not scary or bad, right? Yes.

Nancy: Thank you. We do not need to constantly be changing our story. Yes.

Hillary: Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. This was fun. Thanks for having me.

Nancy: This interview was so much fun because Hillary and I were able to hash out the concept of storytelling and narrative as it comes in contact with self-help and personal development.

And both of those processes are messy. I think anytime we can get out of our knowledge bubbles, we can learn more and have such amazing conversations. And that is what Hillary did for me. And I hope you too, since this interview, I've embraced my stories. More looking at them with pride is something that has shaped me, owning our stories is a form of self loyalty when we can own them and see them for what they are.

We recognize both their power and their pain, and we can choose what we want to hold on to.

---

Episode 141: Setting Healthy Boundaries as an Act of Kindness

In today’s episode, I am talking with Randi Buckley, leadership mentor, and writer about setting healthy boundaries with kindness.

There are numerous definitions of boundaries. 

One of them is that boundaries serve as expectation management. At its core, it’s quite simple: boundaries create an expectation for what I can expect from you and, conversely, what you can expect from me. 

Healthy boundaries create healthy expectations and are truly essential for any kind of relationship—but people with high functioning anxiety really struggle with setting them for a number of reasons. 

They think that people won’t like them.

There might be conflict. 

It might mean they hurt someone’s feelings.

Ouch. 

But when setting boundaries, any of the above can happen—but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t follow through. In fact, boundaries are one way we can be both clear and kind with others. 

If that feels counterintuitive to you, I recommend giving this episode a listen. Today, I’m discussing the importance of boundaries with Randi Buckley. 

Randi is a leadership mentor, author, and podcaster who offers a different way of thinking for something more. She is also the creator of the group- and self-led programs, Healthy Boundaries for Kind People and Maybe Baby. and works with wildly intelligent individuals and organizations, and is a curator of context, nuance, and discernment. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why using mind reading to keep the peace often leads to bigger blow-ups

• What it means to carry the emotional weight for other people, how we naturally do it, and, more importantly, how to stop

• How the break down of setting boundaries is more than just saying no

• The difference between people-pleasing and kindness (and why one undermines boundaries while the other does not)

Resources mentioned:

• randibuckley.com

• Instagram: @randi.buckley

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Randi: I have many definitions for boundaries. So one of them is that boundaries are expectation management, and I think that's just being clear of what you could expect from what somebody can expect from you and what you can expect from somebody else, because then you're on the same page. If something wasn't similar, you have that moment to reconcile setting

Nancy: boundaries is way more than just saying No.

Having clear boundaries is something people with high functioning, anxiety struggle with boundaries mean, or they might not like me. There might be conflict. I might hurt someone's feelings. I'm going to have to be open and honest with them. All of those are true. And yet as today's guest Randy Buckley.

Clarity is an act of kindness and boundaries are the ultimate in clarity it's setting boundaries sounds stressful to you. I encourage you to give today's show a listen.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Randy Buckley has been teaching the class boundaries for kind people. For years. I took her course a couple of years ago and it opened my eyes to the nuance of boundary setting that often gets lost in the self-help personal development. Randy Buckley is a leadership mentor, author and podcaster.

She's the creator of healthy boundaries for kind people, the deep and maybe baby. She has been described as equal parts, Pema, Chodron, Sophia, Loren, and Clint Eastwood with us splash of George Carlin in this episode, Randy. And I talk about why using mind reading to keep the peace often leads to bigger blow ups, what it means to carry the emotional weight for other people and how we naturally do.

And how to stop the breakdown of setting boundaries. It's more than just saying no. And the difference between people pleasing and kindness, as Randy said, people pleasing, undermines boundaries.

Okay. So Randy Buckley is here with me today. I am so excited to have you hear from her. Cause she is one of she doesn't know this, but she has inspired my work a lot and is one of the people that I go to for wisdom.

Welcome

Randi: Randy. Oh, that's quite an introduction. Thank you for knowing my work at all. (laughter)

Nancy: She's also very humble. Randy is okay, so Randy is here. We're going to be talking about boundaries, which I know is something that a lot of us struggle with and in this month is our theme is control and boundaries have a lot to play in that.

Arena. So we're going to jump right in. So a lot of my clients deal with mind reading in the spirit of trying to keep the peace. When in reality, this just leads to bigger blow ups. How do you see this working in your expertise around boundaries?

Randi: There are so many assumptions that people will know our boundaries or that we know the boundaries of others.

To this, through the lens of boundaries, of course, we assume a lot and we assume incorrectly a lot and that's, that can be a lot of pain. And we think some people should just have common sense, or this is the common sense that we're all coming from the maybe even the same set of values or have the same understanding of situation.

But clarity is an act of kindness. And I think when we're trying to read minds, I think it's exactly for what you said, trying to keep the peace, or if somebody has had a very bad experience in the past, they're tiptoeing around somebody as not to ask or induce some sort of rage. So we just try to read minds has tried to bypass that step all together, but.

The risk is I believe that when reading minds, we don't actually know what we're getting into. Whether we're we think what somebody, we know it's somebody's boundaries would be what we think they should know ours. So there's a lot to open to interpretation and that's where we assign meaning that could be incredibly wrong.

But it gets us, it usually gets us into some trouble in the sense of pain.

Nancy: And so how do you, if you've grown up in an environment where that was the case, like where there might be a blow up, if you say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, how do you calm yourself? And how do you calm yourself enough to catch yourself, mind reading and change that dynamic.

Randi: I think awareness in and of itself is huge because once you are aware, then you can be conscious and intentional and deliberate with your next action. And so often we just go on. Our default mode, those tracks. I often compare it to, not that I cross country ski at all, but it reminds me of tracks in the snow.

It's a lot easier when you're skiing so I hear to cut those tracks in the snow than to have to leave your own tracks. So you can glide. And that mind reading are those tracks in the snow that are often really established well established. So we have to get off that particular track and say, okay, am I attempting to mind reading here in?

Is that actually going to be beneficial to the situation I want to have happen? So I think the first thing is awareness. And then you get to ask and I think so often we're afraid of asking in part because we're afraid what the answer will be, but I think more often than not people appreciate our asking. Even if we get the response of course. Or you should know or something like that, we cared enough to ask. I remember my dad saying to my mom a lot because they had two very different ways of relating. Sometimes he would, oh, he'd say Nancy, I can't read minds. Just tell me. And she was, she thought, you've done this a hundred times.

Why wouldn't why would it be. But now, but they came from very different ways. So I saw that clarity was an act of kindness.

Nancy: So when you talk about the asking, can you give me an example of what I, like how you would ask?

Randi: I think there are lots of ways you could ask, so it depends on the situation a little bit, but sometimes if you just want to clarify what you think, say, so just so I'm on the same page.

You want me to come by at four to pick you up as opposed to that being an assumption. And really that to me is where I set boundaries or expectation management. Many definitions for boundaries. So one of them is that boundaries are expectation management, and I think that's just being clear of what you could expect from what somebody can expect from you and what you can expect from somebody else, because then you're on the same page.

If something wasn't You have that moment to reconcile. Oh, I actually need you to be here and then you can figure it out because I think so often we have that assumption we don't ask, we try to mind read and then we carry it with us. And then when it didn't work out, arrgh why did they tell me my time or X, Y, and Z.

And then, we plant some seeds of resentment, which tend to get watered with each subsequent interaction.

Nancy: So what if you're dealing with someone who is passive aggressive, or you grew up with someone who was passive aggressive. So there was always the message. And then the underlying message.

What they really meant. How do you, I know,

Randi: I know exactly what you mean, and I have to say that I didn't see this in my nuclear family, but I definitely sent it, saw it, my extended family. And it was fascinating to me. I think you just say, okay. Clarifying, which is, I think it just goes back to clarifying and it doesn't have to be a, oh crap.

They're being passive aggressive. How do I interpret this? I think it just be okay. So what you're saying is this right? And just having a moment, the clarity, and then

Nancy: letting it go if they don't say, if they're like, oh no I don't need you to come today. it's raining, you can stay home, but really underneath they're like, I want her to come.

If you can clarify that and say I'm not coming...

Randi: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So I just want to make sure that I won't be here. And there's so much of that, and it leads to so much interpretation. And when dealing with wild, passive aggression, my MO is generally to go with what they say.

I might ask. I will ask me clarify, but even what they say, oh no, don't come. Something like that. I'm going to trust that they're making adult decisions. And so I will honor that decision with the hope being that if that was actually not what they meant in the future, they will tell me what they meant because I'm going to honor them.

Nancy: So it's retraining them in a sense,

Randi: right and ourselves, I don't have to interpret, they said this. I would like to trust that they are able to say what they mean. What they say very Dr. Seuss. Yeah.

Nancy: Cause then it's sitting with that uncomfortableness. Because I think we get something out of the, oh no.

What they're really meaning is this, I noticed I think about this, my husband and I. Have a dynamic. He was raised in that passive aggressive, and I was raised in the blunt, tell it like it is. And so when my mom says, no, don't come. He's oh no, she really wants us to come.

That's what she's really saying. And he won't ever believe what really comes out of people's mouths. And I think that's just a fascinating, cause it's so entrenched in his brain that people don't speak the truth.

Randi: Exactly. And that my parents that's come from the different backgrounds.

So it was very easy depending on what grandparents were dealing with, around what the expectation would be. And so I just wanted to be clear.

Nancy: Yeah. And to have the, I think to have that in your mind of what they're saying is that's what I'm going with, to have that clarity.

Randi: Right.

And I think it's a gift to people to honor them. Okay. That's what you're saying. I in, I want to be able to honor that other than undermining or second guessing that, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, because that is a lot of energy.

Randi: Yeah. A LOT of energy!

Nancy: So how did you get into boundary work?

Randi: It's something people often expect me to have this amazing story of how I had terrible boundaries and I have it actually, I grew up in a military family, so I was moving a lot and I saw the difference largely in my sister and I, my sister made moved to a new place and my sister immediately wanted to make friends.

Understandably. She was a little kid, one, definitely friends. And I think often she was much more, yeah. Flexible with her boundaries in order to connect with other people and make friends that felt more important to her. And I was much more okay with the, what those boundaries are, I didn't think in terms of boundaries at that point, this is a boundary, but I thought, oh no, you were probably have different interests so we can be nice to each other, but we're probably not going to start a friendship, a deep friendship.

And I watched that evolve in different ways. And she has given me permission to say this. So I'm not. Be trying anything, but she later on got into a series of relationships that were very unhealthy with men who did it honor her boundaries. And it was so the boundary work then was all about what I couldn't say to her because there were really intense situations where I would have probably, she probably would have cut me off at it actually said what I thought at the time.

And then I noticed at the same time that clients were dealing with parallel issues, maybe not to the same extreme or intensity. But, so I saw this extreme situations where boundaries were being honored. In what could be going on. And then we could apply that learning what, all the things I wish I could say to my sister, I started applying to my clients and then I started, I just went ahead and created a body of work out of it

Nancy: because it's called healthy boundaries for kind people, healthy boundaries,

Randi: yeah.

And my sister is amazing. She's a Spitfire, she's one of the kindest people you will ever meet. But for some reason, though, it changed those she’s still kind, but. People took a lot of advantage of that kindness and it didn't have to be that way

Nancy: at all, just because I know you have a difference between kind and nice.

Tell me that. Sure.

Randi: If I start going into a thesis, please cut me off. But I do think there's a profound difference between nice and kind and I'll preface that by saying I think nice gets a bad rap. Okay. I think nice could be manners. Nice. Can be nice for me. This is about making people, other people comfortable.

So it's hospitality. But kindness is about caring. About your values and their values and not letting other things get in the way. So if I have a strong value for compassion, I'm not going to let niceness me making the other people comfortable for in order for me to be able to be compassionate with you.

So whether that's a value of justice or all those other things, for me, kindness will always Trump. Nice, because that is far more important to me. That's something I just have, I deeply value that. So kindness or excuse me, niceness can get in the way. And there's certainly nothing wrong with bringing somebody a cup of coffee or something, saying, please, and thank you.

But it's when it starts to override kindness or it gets in the way of a healthy relationship, that's where I started to have an issue. So I, my really quick thing I say is niceness is about. Not making waves. And kindness is really more about changing the world.

Nancy: Ooh. I love that. Wow.

Oh good. That's really cool. Because you're right. I had heard you say that difference, but I hadn't because the nice does get a bad right. And and sometimes it deserves it. Yes. Yeah. But not always. Yeah. But I like the, the way you couch it with the other people, it's really helpful because I think that is I think that is a difference, and I know a lot of people, that's why I always was attracted to healthy boundaries for kind people.

Cause that kind of yeah, I want to be kind but boundaries, that doesn't go together in my mind. but it does in your framework.

Randi: And then, and when I start working with folks, that's usually one of the first questions I ask them. Okay. Tell me what boundaries means to you. And more often than not, it's this horrible thing, which if you're kind or where you value kindness or compassion or whatever your values are, you're not going to do those things that have you feel unkind, so if boundaries feel like this unkind, nasty thing or an imposition, or that you have to be a real jerk in order to do it.

There's no way you're going to have them. You value the you value kindness far more. But what I'm trying to, my general thing is boundaries are an act of kindness to the point we made know. Which helps people really, it's almost like giving people an instruction manual to get you at your best. Oh, okay.

This is the framework, how it has the optimum optimization or functioning, and I'd like you to be able to get that. And to me, that's an act of kindness.

Nancy: So what brings people oh, I am having boundary problems and I'm sure they're not all the way to where your sister was.

They're more, further down, but what are some examples of people being like this isn't working for me anymore?

Randi: One thing I had not anticipated and ends up being really big and I hadn’t anticipated because it wasn't my experience, but relationships with mothers seem to be really Impacted by a lack of boundaries.

So relationships with mothers, family relationships when boundaries are between work and home, start to feel very blurred, feel like they're not able to speak up for themselves or start to feel like a doormat or have felt like a doormat forever. And they heard there's a way to feel different .

I think that's really. Comes down to when you're just tired of the situation being what it's bad. You hope you have some hope. So we take that up and we run with it. Cause it absolutely can be different.

Nancy: Do you think people can do boundaries if they don't believe it? . If that, like I have to come to you saying I really, I know it's boundaries.

That's my problem.

Randi: Oh no. I think they can, because I think what they find out is actually it isn’t. One of the things I tell my clients is if somebody tells you they don't believe in boundaries, believe them. (laughter) Because that probably means they aren’t going to honor yours, but what we do is we often then redefined boundaries to something that's quite not just palatable, but sometimes you crave Ooh, actually that would be amazing.

So often we don't recognize this or whatever's going on as the need for boundaries or for better boundaries. But once we define it as such. We make it something that is aspirational and attainable because it's

Nancy: I even think about my own life, instead of being the clear of, I want to sit here and read this book for the next 30 minutes

I'll come down and just, and do something else or putz around. I don't engage with my husband. Or I'll sit there and I'll not tell him what I'm doing. And he's Hey, I thought we were going to watch a show or something. And I'm like, oh no, I want to read this book. And then I get testy about it.

But it's because I say, I want to sit here and read this book for 30 minutes and it's so simple when you do it,

Randi: And it gets exhausting and sometimes it feels why do I always have to be the one who takes the initiative? And I don't know if that's the case that you're speaking about, but I think sometimes we're exhausted for always being the one who has to do the work. Then it's not fair. And my thought is, if it matters to you, it's worth it.

If it has meaning if it matters to you, even if you're the one doing it more often than not, or more than your fair share of whatever that is. It's worth it because it's important to you.

Nancy: Yeah. Because a lot of times that comes up because I'm not owning that. I want to sit here and read the book. I'm vague, I know I don't want to watch a show with him and I want to read the book, but I haven't really owned that yet in that being kind to myself to say, this is what I want to do.

So I'm going to own it instead of let me yeah. Putz around, over here doing other stuff. I don't know right now if that's clear, but

Randi: oh, I get that. Absolutely. And sometimes we don't know, you might not be owning it and you might not be ready to like, yes. Yeah. Oh, I'm not being productive. So it's almost hard to commit to it.

When you feel like maybe you should be doing something

Nancy: that is more likely the problem.

Randi: There are a variety of scenarios

Nancy: On your Instagram that you talked about carrying the emotional weight for other people. Yeah, and I love that phrase. And I hadn't really thought about that is a lot of what my clients do, but I hadn't really thought about it like that. So can you tell me, what does that look like and how it hurts us?

Randi: Absolutely. I see people trying to protect other people a lot from pain disappointment. So they try to carry the burden for them. They try to, I say, carry emotional weight of others. We try to protect them from having to feel it or process it. And that's painful for us because it's not ours. And I think it's feels like an act of kindness or compassion, but we're not letting them, if we try to lift that and carry it, take it off their shoulders or off their plate.

They're not getting the full experience that they might need to. Be with it to process it, to decide they have at the decisions really to heal from that experience. So what happens is we know when we haven't worked on something, it comes right back around until we get it again. Or until we actually, oh, it keeps coming back up.

But that's painful for us then, because we're trying to carry something. That's not ours. You take disproportionate responsibility for something that we might not have control over. And I know your theme is control. So we're trying to control something that is not ours to control, and we do it because we're trying to be a good person.

We do it because we're trying to be sensitive. Maybe they've had a lot going on. I think it's important to see the distinction of seeing. Or the distinction of, we can recognize somebody's pain. We can see it. We can be with it without having to take it on as our own. And I think so often folks who value compassion, say I see this, so I shall carry it for them.

And that's a very big difference

Nancy: and we do it in subtle ways. It's like it doesn't have to be the big oh, someone's grieving and I'm going to carry their grief for them or my kid fell. And so I'm going to, comfort him. It's little tiny ways that shows up in our marriages and in our relationships where we protect people.

Randi: And that's, and I don't want to, three, there's a lot of nuance in that too. I'm not saying, let people fend for themselves. There are situations, there's a lot of nuance, but I think, and I love the idea, as you and I have talked about context, nuance and discernments are important to me.

So I think it's really important to look at the nuance and context and discern what's right for you. But I think more often than not, we in those little situations, it's almost like. It sounds like the inverse of microaggression, sort of other people it's we're constantly taking that on in order to protect somebody.

Yeah.

Nancy: And some of that comes up in the, even in the like back to our question before about the I totally lost it. The need Asking for what you need so that I would like, oh, can you clean the kitchen? And instead, and he's going to be like, oh, I have so much to do, blah, blah, blah. I don't have time to clean the kitchen rather than just letting him struggle with that because I have so much to do too.

And I really need the kitchen done. I'll make room in my calendar to get the kitchen done. On top of everything I have to do instead of being like, okay, he's going to have to figure it out. It's going to be uncomfortable for him. And that's okay. And I think that happens all the time.

Randi: Absolutely.

Absolutely. And, we could also just say, you know what, maybe the kitchen doesn’t get cleaned right now, a lot of other things, but we have this, it has to happen. Or it has illness illnesses, black, white. It happens where it doesn't they do it, or I have to do it. And I think when we make those little tiny decisions throughout the day It builds up because we're all here I go again.

Let's take care of it. Ah, it's not worth bothering somebody else. It's not worth the headache, but that adds up.

Nancy: And I think that's having the awareness of why am I doing this now? Is it because, my inner critic is telling me I have to clean up the kitchen or is it also just because I want to protect them?

I think that's another question to be asking how much we when we're used to doing that, mind reading that fits right in.

Randi: Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of that boils down to when I call the pathology of have crappy boundaries or for boundary challenges. It's really, we have a fear of disappointing others.

We have a fear of missing out. We have questions around worthiness. And for me a lot, or we've never seen boundaries model, or you can have them, those are my four biggies, but to me, they all boil down to my fifth one, which is fear for, and thinking if I don't clean the kitchen, they're going to get frustrated and, fast forward a long time they leave.

So it's almost like we're constantly trying to be saying people's good graces to protect them, but also to protect ourselves.

Nancy: That's very well said

I know in the work I've done with clients on boundaries, they can set the boundary, but then that's just the fricking beginning. So much more to it than that. Can you talk a little bit to that?

Randi: Sure. So I think sometimes it feels like so much work to set the boundary, whether you've finally got the words out.

. So it feels like you've climbed this mountain and you're at the top and one and done. And what usually happens, particularly in pre-existing relationships, meet, a spouse, a partner, a family, as opposed to somebody who you run into at the store before, when we used to be able to go to stores.

Because we're in we're instituting of boundary, or I like to say nurturing a boundary, it is cultivating and nurturing the boundary, but. What often happens is pushback because either people didn't hear you, they didn't understand it. They're confused by it and went completely over their head.

You'd never said it before, so they didn't really recognize it. But what happens then is we tend to get pushed back and say, forget it. See, they said, no. They said no to my boundary and push back. I think it's a couple of things here. I think it's really important to know, in my opinion, pushback as part of the process.

Push back means, oh, wow. What you said was met with something, even if it wasn't the desired response you wanted it, it found a home. It's almost like a radio or a radio signal. If I'm an antenna, you may not have gotten the clear message, but it gives us a chance to reiterate and be perhaps even more clear.

So often I think when people get pushed back, they say, Declare a boundary, they get pushed back and they say, see, I can't have you. I can't have boundaries. They won't allow me, which I'll get to in a second. Or they won't be able to give me my boundaries or something that spirit. So push back is part of the process and pushback, usually doesn't feel.

In my experience, but I think we can reframe it as well. I was heard possibly for the first time or something got through to where it made sense to them. Maybe not total sense, but that was heard so we can reiterate and we can revisit we can discuss whatever that is. And sometimes it just needs a reminder, but so often, and pre-existing relationships because they'd never, this was new.

It didn't really register. It didn't really register.

Nancy: Yeah, because none of the reasons you gave for why it didn't register were I didn't want to do it or that they didn't want to do it, or they didn't care.

Randi: And that could be a reason. They're right. More often than not exact, it's just, they were confused or sometimes we tune out, right? Like the Peanuts. Wah Wah Wah. So I think that is a lot of it, but then we're so quick to say, forget it. I can't have it. So you set a boundary, you might feel good that you did it. You get pushed back instead of abandoning that boundary, you get to show you're serious about it.

Because if we don't honor our own boundaries, why would anybody else honor it? Because they don't see it. There's no role modeling of what that boundary actually is. And. And this was what I was referring to. I think so often people think others have to like the boundaries or they have to get buy-in from other people to be able to have the boundary and no water at the boundary.

They don't have to like it. And sometimes people who don't like it initially will actually like it later. Sometimes it's new for them at first, but then they really come to respect the fact that you were able to say what was right. And how would you actually gave me this clear instruction because you value our relationship.

So I think it's not this, it might feel good initially. And then if we talk about my work boundary hangovers, and just be like afterwards, and you might have to take a little break and that doesn't mean you let up your boundaries, but you don't necessarily have to actively pursue it. Just maintain and, let yourself just if you overworked the muscle, let it rest right.

And go back out there.

Nancy: Yeah, I really, because it's sitting with the uncomfortableness of giving them their time to respond. Giving them their time to process and do take it in, I can remember, and this happened. 15 years ago, I can remember driving up. I was telling my mentor that I was leaving the practice to go start my own.

And I knew it was not going to go over well, and as I was driving up there, it's something just hit me. And I was like, she's allowed to be upset about this. Absolutely. And it was just like this totally freeing moment of Wow. Like she's, I don't have to make this all better for her. Like she's allowed and she probably will be upset in that makes sense.

That she'd be upset. And even if it doesn't matter because she's allowed to have that reaction. And that was just such an aha for me to recognize, I didn't have to justify it or prove that it was okay. I could just be like, this is what I'm doing and you're going to be uncomfortable. And here we go.

Randi: How respectful of you that you let her have that reaction and recognize that. That might be a natural response that you get that. And it was also a great example, what we were talking about earlier for you not trying to carry the, her emotional weight. I'm maybe the practice, I'll be on call or you can, oh, let me give you a necklace.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. And we do that jump in and try to make it better before we even give them a chance. Because we're uncomfortable before we even know if they're uncomfortable, we're already, or I am already jumping in to make it better,

Randi: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Trust ourselves that if somebody is going to be upset, we will handle it.

We will be able to, we weren't the children. Or no longer the child that may have been overwhelmed by that situation or scared, but that we hopefully probably have better coping skills. Now then if something comes up, we'll be able to dance in the moment with whatever that is in handling.

Nancy: Yeah.

Yeah. Cause that's another one of my favorite reminders is I'm not eight years old. Yes. And then every, it is fascinating to me that every time I say that to myself, you're 47. It's whoa, like it's I forget. Yeah. Cause I'm in, I'm an eight year old in my head, when I'm thinking about it.

And then when I read my oh yeah.

Randi: I'm 47 too so I totally get it.

Nancy: We touched on this already. I still want to go back to it because people pleasing is such a big part of my client's world and where they get a lot of ease to their anxiety is by making sure the rest, pushing back and making sure the rest of the world is okay. And I do a lot of talking about being kind to yourself.

That's a big. Part of my work. So you say again on Instagram, because I love your Instagram where you said people pleasing, undermines kindness. Yes. Which I think is the opposite of what a lot of people think. And so tell me more.

Randi: I have a very rebellious nature, (laughter)

Nancy: which is one reason that I love your stuff

Randi: I have to point that out. So I think ultimately people pleasing is about. When you base your self-worth on other people's reactions, as opposed to what you feel based on your own reaction, you really look outside yourself to see, to measure your worthiness. And so we people please. So that is an attempt at and I'm not, I don't want to be right.

People pleasers. I think we all have that tendency and there's, it's a survival mechanism for a lot of people and we've learned it, but we don't necessarily have to carry that. So I just. Put that out there that you're not a bad person. I don't think you're terrible. If you are a people pleaser.

I think it's very common in people. Pleasers have really big challenges with boundaries when we're people pleasing, our kindness might not be as authentic as it could be. One for people pleasing. We're doing this to try to control their reaction as opposed to necessarily coming from our. It doesn't mean there might not be overlap or it can't be both, but it's undermining our kindness because we're trying to make us be safe as opposed to just act an act of kindness for the sake of being kind.

So that's the big version, big umbrella version of that. I could just dissect it a little bit more, but that's a big wake up call for a lot of people pleasers. We rationalize people pleasing as I'm trying to be nice indoor kind, nice endocrine. And I think those are both in there, but really if we're trying to manipulate a situation is that act of kindness.

So I want people's kindness to be free, to be kind, just to be free to do what feels like an expression of their kindness, not to necessarily manipulate the situation even. Feels like it's for protection it's to try to avoid a response, your kindness can just be without having to have any sort of payback, so to speak sort of result of that kindness.

And that's what I mean by that. I love that

Nancy: because it is, it is a form of control without recognizing it, like it's and, control gets such a negative connotation, but it's a sense of just taking back control of your environment. The people pleasing that I can. I can feel more the master of this situation. If I know I can people please, when in reality you're turning it on it’s head, you could be the master of this situation by being clear and setting boundaries and only doing things that are coming from your heart.

Randi: Exactly. For me, I. I, I know sometimes I've been on the other end where people have been trying to be nice. So they invited me along, something they really want me to go along to that feels awful to find that out later disingenuous, it felt, and I get what they're trying to do, but I'd much rather somebody not trying to people please me, and be honest, or, just be themselves or not have to put out this phony act.

Just in order to try to protect my feelings cause that I've been on the other end of that. And it's no fun either. So I absolutely agree with you that it is an attempt to control and get that good, get good feedback about ourselves, right?

Nancy: Yeah. And that in is also the, like the person who invited you along, wasn't allowing you to have your emotional was picking up your emotional baggage rather than letting you be disappointed. If you were going to be, they don't even know you were going to be disappointed.

Randi: To be honest, I would have been disappointed to me.

I'd rather be disappointed than somebody being disingenuous with me. Authentic. I can deal with that. I can heal from that. I'm sure it can heal from both. That just feels a lot cleaner in my world.

Nancy: Yeah. That's interesting. Do you think that boundaries can be too strong?

Randi: Yes. So when I do the healthy boundaries, kind of people work, I have lots of analogies and metaphors I use, and one of them is boundaries are like a spine and they can bend and flex to support you.

Because I think we have this idea about boundaries of once you've drawn your line in the sand, that's it's just. Page almost, but then circumstances might change. You might you might not want to see a certain person at the family reunion, but you might want to see everybody else because we don't want to see that one person.

We won't give ourselves the experience of seeing everybody else. That's a real nutshell version of an example I use, but boundaries can be, if they're too. Stiff like a spine that can't move with you. And so you're really stuck in this rigid situation that you are, if your boundaries are too firm that don't have an, you're not getting any of them for context, nuance or discernment.

We know that spines when they're flexible. So my sister is an acupuncturist and I use to do Ayurveda years. And we, so we talk about. Healing traditions around the world. And in both of those traditions, they say something to the effect of you are as healthy as your spine. And there are certainly folks for whom that is not the case.

And that probably don't appreciate that. But for other people that is the case. And so I see boundaries like a spine. They give you, they let you stand tall. They provide support, but they can move in the ways you want to move. And allow that to happen. So when our boundaries are too firm first of all, we're not recognizing growth or evolution in our life.

Think situations may have changed, we may have changed and it really then limits what we are allowing ourselves to do, or the type of relationships we can have with other people.

Nancy: Awesome. I'm glad I asked that question. Because I love your that's. One thing I love about your work is there's in the coaching and therapy world boundaries is full of shame and, super strong messages, like the example of the family you gave, don't go see your family if they're not supporting you.

And there isn't any room for that gray nuance stuff that I think is necessary. Healthy boundaries. So that was one thing that really drew me to your work, because I know there is, I have felt the shame from boundary work of, people saying stop doing that. You need to set a firm boundary and what's wrong with you that you can't, and that it can get turned back on you really quickly.

Instead of being the kindness around it, right?

Randi: And there are some things you might be very black and white about, and that might not never change, but if they aren't there aren't, be, find, understand what those boundaries are so that you feel like your values are being honored.

And then to me, that's another definition that our boundaries, our values turned into. And so we can then live that thing in our lives and make sure that other people are honoring that too. So I think there's a whole lot of nuance in there has to be because we are nuanced creatures.

Nancy: Because if I say to my husband, I went to read this book at six o'clock every night.

That's my boundary. I'm making this up, obviously he may say, oh but I have a meeting. It starts at six. I need, what about the kids or whatever, and then, but so we can negotiate that, but I've still set my values, my intention out there on the line of what I want.

Randi: Your value is to have that time and, reading and self care, whatever that is for you, that you're doing by reading at six o'clock every night, and sometimes another value might trump it for the health of your children. So it's not that we're so rigid of, no, this is my time. And if it, if you're constantly interrupted, it certainly feels like you have to be rigid and there might be times where you need to be a little bit more rigid, but if we can ebb and flow with what's important to you.

We're set.

Nancy: Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. So tell me more about how people can work with you with healthy boundaries for kind people and where you are with all of that

Randi: work. Sure. I'm currently running the healthy boundaries for kind people cohort right now. I tend to run it once a year.

It's about a three and a half month program that we do At this point, at the time we're recording this, we don't know what next month looks like. What's happening. When, so my anticipated running it again is in January, 2020, but I am on Instagram in, I also train people to do the work, train people, to facilitate healthy boundaries for kind people, whether in their home with their clients And their office with themselves.

Some people just want to go way, you want to take a deep dive into the work. So we do the healthy ventures for kind of people to sole traitor coaching, facilitator certification. And I do work one-on-one with folks, but I also have many coaches or folks who have done that training who are, I've put my stamp of approval on their understanding of the.

Oh, okay.

Nancy: Okay, cool. So you have certified people, not certified, but trained people in the healthy boundaries for kind work that you can refer people to. Yeah. And then can anyone do the facilitator training or do they have to have a coach. A license or

Randi: I prefer somebody who's taken healthy boundaries for kind people.

The course. But if you're willing to do a little bit of work to come up to speed on some of the general thing, cause it helps once you've applied that work yourself, what it looks like. And to know if that's what you really want. Spent a lot of time on, get to know me a little bit. It's possible, but generally I prefer that people have done the core curriculum.

Nancy: And then another thing that I originally got attracted to for was the maybe baby, do you still do that?

Randi: Yeah.. Thank you for asking. It's very dear to me. Maybe Baby is a program that I put myself through and then created for folks who were ambivalent about motherhood that heard the whisper of maybe.

And that was very much my case. I was not, I'd like to kids. I worked at a camp for 30 years. But I'd certainly w I did not want to become a mom. I want to, I used to joke around people and made them a little uncomfortable. They said, what are you having kids? And I'd say, I just want to be the rich eccentric, I was not fulfilling one of those that they didn't ask me more questions, but It's a really big question.

There are very few places. I think you could turn to where you have unbiased conversation. So maybe journey is something that I work with people one-on-one, but I also have a self-study if they want to do it on their own to find out what is true for you. And then how can you lean into that truth?

All the more, because there's so many fears about motherhood. What if we actually regret it later? I don't re or if I decide now, or, what if I don't regret having kids or just because I regret having kids with, if I regret not having kids or becoming a parent, but everybody in our lives generally has a hope or wish that we do, or, oh, it'll change your mind.

Everybody has this bias. So it's really important to me that women have. As unbiased as possible space to explore that if you are in a partnership with somebody and that's how you want to potentially obtain parenthood, that at least, where you stand B before, I think somebody feel like they have to make that decision together, which if you're in a partnership, it's probably good to consult.

We talked about expectation management, but it's really nice to know where you are, where you stand first. Yes. So maybe baby is very dear to me

Nancy: Because that I had already made my decision not to have kids when I've saw Maybe Baby, And I was very like, I don't want to have kids. I don't want to have kids.

I don't want to have kids, but then when I hit my mid thirties, there was the whisper that came and that was like maybe. And you just made that new, normal, just seeing what you were writing about maybe baby at the time. It just normalized that for me, that I can still make this decision and it's okay.

That I still have that whisper. Absolutely. That was so refreshing.

Randi: Oh good. Because I think if you've ever had an ambivalence or you're somebody who deals with ambivalence sometimes. Ambivalence will always be a part of your equation. So we're always looking for this perfect answer that I have no doubt or, we care other people say that.

I did decide that was true for me to have a child and even going into, I had an emergency C-section, but even going into that, and they're still like and at that point, it was pretty much happening, but I really want to be clear on that though. I don't have this secret idea of making everybody see the light. This is the right path for you. I think if we honor, what's true for us in any context around parenthood boundaries, the whole world just goes a little bit more into alignment because we're a greater truth in general.

So that's really important to me and I, and let me just say, I think women who are not direct parent are some of the most undervalued people on the planet. Oh, absolutely. It's a huge role. And it's so important. And I think it's a lot of us think about some of our favorite women in our lives.

They're those people who could be that person to us.

Nancy: Yeah, because it is a because it still comes up, I'm well past giving birth, but I'll, every now and then I'll be like, oh, maybe we should adopt, or I have all this extra caregiving. And I think about your program, even though I didn't do it, but I still think no, this is normal.

It's okay to be, to have this. And we're going to figure out ways. And that was the cool thing. Now that I just last night, like we get together every quarter with them. Nieces and nephews, and they're all, my oldest, my youngest is going to turn 18 tomorrow. So they're all in college and they want to get together with us and play games on zoom is just the best, that, and that I could have made that an intention to fulfill that, because I wanted to be.

The cool, eccentric aunt and I'm not there, but the rest of it, and so I think that, yeah, I just thank you for doing that. And I, if anyone is interested, it's a awesome program and I'm so glad. Because there isn't anything like that out there. Because I looked.

Randi: I was looking. And so that's why I created it.

And, I want to talk to my mom, but since you'd be having a good year met, of course she wanted a grandchild. You'll miss it late and you'll regret it later. I remember hearing that and thank you for honoring that. I do think it's really important. And thank you for being that person to your nieces and nephews.

And, motherhood is not just about children. Regenerative creatures. And that comes out of, creation and need to be nurturing or whatever that

Nancy: definition is. Yeah. And it does, and then maybe baby even goes into the boundaries. I'm saying like, you can see how those are connected, right?

Randi: For me, everything boils down to boundaries. It's really the infrastructure for how we want to live. So that is. That's very key for me.

Nancy: Oh, thank you so much, Randy, for giving us a little intro into boundaries. I know you have a ton more to say. So tell us where people can find you.

Randi: Sure. My website is probably the best place, Randy, with an eye Randibuckley.com and on Instagram I, Randy dot Buckley.

Yeah, those are the two best.

Nancy: Awesome. And I will have those links in the show notes to everything. And thanks again for taking the time to chat with us.

Randi: What a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's such a great conversation.

Nancy: There were so many wonderful takeaways from the show I learned so much, but the part I want to revisit is at the end, when she talks about people, pleasing and kindness, because it's hard to admit that while our desire to please might appear as if it's coming from an altruistic place, it is most likely coming from a place of control, controlling their reaction or controlling the conflict.

It's not from a genuine grounded place. This is so hard to see in ourselves. And it is so important to start recognizing where we're human and where we do really human things based on the lessons we learned growing up and what we've learned throughout our lives, being aware of our motivations and being honest with ourselves all back to that self loyalty is so important.

---

Episode 140: Why I Am Leaving Facebook & Instagram

In today’s episode, I talk about my recent debate on the positives and negatives of social media, and why I am signing off my social media accounts.

Hanging with a friend in the backyard.

Cooking dinner. 

Relaxing with my husband. 

Driving to pick up food and sitting at the traffic light.

During a conference call with a colleague. 

Countless times throughout the day when I’m feeling uninspired, vigilant, or bored. 

These are just a few of the times social media has infiltrated my life in the past few days. 

Social media continually takes me away from the experiences and relationships I really value—over and over again. 

The thing about social media is that it's supposed to make you feel more connected to people you care about... but ends up taking you away from the moments you spend with them.

That’s why I’m leaving social media. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The thought process that went behind leaving social media for good

• 3 main reasons why I wanted to stay on social media (and what I realized)

• The 2 rules I used to be more intentional and thoughtful about my decision to leave

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Hanging with a friend in the backyard, cooking dinner, relaxing with my husband, driving to pick up food and sitting at a traffic light during a conference call with a colleague countless times throughout the day, when feeling uninspired, vigilant or bored. These are just a few of the times. Social media has infiltrated my life in the past few days.

Social media continually takes me away from the experiences and relations. I really value over and over again. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

The thing about social media is that it's supposed to make you feel more connected to people you care about, but it ends up taking you away from the moments you spend with them. And that's why I've always had a love, hate relationship with social media. Specifically with Instagram and Facebook. My relationship has always been codependent and on.

I've tried to limit my use. I've tried to set safeguards around it. I tried to use hashtag safe, social as Bailey Parnell talks about with me in episode 129. And yet here I am, again, feeling overwhelmed and controlled by social media. But this time I'm making a change this time. I'm leaving social media.

As of July 1st, I have left social media rather than just disappearing though. I wanted to share my decision making process in case maybe you too have a love, hate relationship with social media. Yes, social media has become the way I stay connected with friends and family across the country. Keep up with businesses.

I love reading articles and getting news. I watched the Facebook ads on TV and I feel giddy inside because the mission of connecting with loved ones is so warm and fuzzy, but there's a dark underbelly that has just become too much for me to support any more. First a little background in early May when I started contemplating leaving, I decided I wanted to do a little pre-work my tendency being the black and white thinker that I am is to make the decision to leave and then poof shut everything down the next day.

But I wanted to be more intentional, more thoughtful. I had two rules pay attention and question everything. As I was observing and debating, I kept running up against three main reasons that I should stay. So I wanted to break those down for you with my thoughts, the first one. I'll miss out on too much stuff.

I've lived here for many years believing I just can't leave. How will I stay in contact with people? Keeping with my two rules of pay attention and question everything. I started noticing who I was keeping in contact with and who I wanted to stay in contact with. One of my favorite parts about Facebook is seeing my old high school classmates and keeping up with their families.

I will definitely miss that. But I noticed how social media feeds the idea of doing something when you aren't really doing something. For example, social media makes you feel like you're connecting with people, but you really aren't. Liking my high school friends son's graduation picture gives me a momentary hit of closeness.

But in reality, I don't even know her son's name and a big reason I liked the post is because I didn't want her to think that I didn't like the post. Yeah. That sounds harsh. But as I started paying attention to how I interacted with social media, it made me so full of myself, the idea that I needed to like something, because what would they think or that I needed to share my new haircut because of course, I mean the whole world wants to see my hair.

As I started noticing my tendency to do performative posting. I started questioning why I was posting and if I could reach out to an actual person rather than write some generic social media post, I started reaching out more off of social media, calling my aunt or texting with my cousin. I actually reached out to one of my high school besties via text, and we've been going back and forth ever since.

Building actual connections off of social media has enriched my life just in the past month. Also realizing I don't need my life to be publicized. I don't need to get likes and comments to feel seen, heard, or celebrated. I want to be celebrated, seen and heard by those. I see in my life, not my hundreds of followers, but those in my inner circle.

And starting to build relationships off of social media. I might miss the occasional birth or wedding announcement. And then I think about life before social media, we missed those announcements and we survived. There's something I noticed throughout this past month as I was debating to leave or not, I am steeped in Facebook, propaganda.

Similar to how my eyes keep getting opened around systemic racism and white privilege. My eyes keep getting opened about how we have this tool that everyone uses run by people with questionable ethics. That makes us feel like we're doing something. When we aren't social media takes me out of my present moment, life away from those I love the most. And for the most part leaves me feeling like shit yet the social media machine convinces us that we need it to keep in touch with others. So in response to the reason I will miss out on too much stuff, I'm committed to building a support group off of social media to go deeper with actual real life relationships and not just throw something up on social media for a pseudo sense of connection.

Reason. Number two, it's a necessary evil. I mean, what about your business? So definitely I need to address the business piece. I do run an online business and for the past 10 years, I've been very diligent about posting to Facebook and Instagram. I rarely pay for ads, but it has happened here and there.

And yet very few of my clients come from social media. This was another shocker considering I had swallowed the lie that I needed, social media to run a business. I might get 20 likes on a post, but you take out my mom, my best friend, my husband, nieces, and nephews. I probably have five people I don't know, personally engaging.

I don't think I've gotten one paying client from social media. And even if my business was huge on social media, I would still be trying to move my business off the space. It might take longer, it might be harder, but I feel strongly enough about this exodus, that my business is not a reason enough to stay

I've also found that too often. I use social media as a way to check the box as if I'm moving my business forward. When it really isn't. For example, a couple of weeks ago, I wrote a podcast called I got this. The scenario in that podcast would have been a simple social media post. I would have thrown it up on social media right after it happened and never done anything more with it.

But instead I took the story and looked at it from a deeper angle and boom, it was a whole podcast episode since making this decision to let go of social media, I have been more engaged and more excited about my business. So in response to the reason it is a necessary evil, what about your business? I'm committed to finding new ways to reach people, building deeper, more meaningful content and brainstorming, building a support group off of social media.

And number three, you can make more change by being on it rather than being off of it. You have to join the system to break. And then the argument that held me up for awhile, you have to be part of the system to change it. I kept getting stuck here, nodding my head in agreement and saying yes. And then I came to this conclusion.

I work with clients who have high functioning anxiety, high functioning anxiety is all about hustling, performing for approval, comparison, being vigilant and staying alert. And these are all the things that social media encourages us. Social media. It's not helpful for people with high-functioning anxiety.

In fact, there is little redeeming about it. So me showing up on social media feels a little bit like me going to a brewery every night and having a couple of drinks while telling people that alcohol is bad. Yes. I hear the argument. That is where the people who need me are, but at the same time, at some point I have to practice what I preach.

I have to practice self loyalty. I have to be honest with myself, social media. It's not healthy for me. I don't believe it's healthy for my clients either. And I also believe they can make that decision for themselves. I believe I can make more changes and help the greater good by stepping off of social media.

So in response to the reason you have to join the system to break it, I'm committed to sharing more about my story with social media and why I'm breaking up with it. I'm also committed to learning more about social media and anxiety and learning ways to decrease anxiety when it comes to social media use.

Overall, I have found social media. It's a bit of a charlatan. It makes me feel like I'm connected to people when I'm really, I'm not, it makes me feel like I'm contributing to the world in an impactful way when I'm really not. It makes me feel like I'm hip and happening and in touch with the larger world.

And when in reality, I'm hearing one small echo chamber. So that is my well thought out, why I'm leaving social media podcast episode. My goal is not to convince you to leave social media, but rather to convince you to bring some intentionality to your social media use, to encourage you to practice the two rules, pay attention and question.

---

Episode 139: Why Bother, What's the Point, and What To Do Next

In today’s episode, I am talking with Jennifer Louden, author, and pioneer in the personal growth movement about taking imperfect action towards our goals.

What’s the point? 

Why bother? 

Who cares? 

It will never change…

Have you ever caught yourself uttering those words? 

Perhaps you’ve said these to yourself when considering a career change or launching a creative project or even making a self-care plan. I know I have! 

These questions can also be considered along the lines of what’s happening across the nation right now with social justice and equality. 

Sometimes, we are so afraid of taking imperfect action and doing it wrong that we simply don’t bother at all. Instead, we stay stuck by not taking action at all and rehashing the ways we did it wrong in the past. 

But we can do it differently. 

We can take small, measured, imperfect action. 

We can make progress toward desire.

Today’s guest, Jennifer Louden, is an expert in doing it differently. She is a personal growth pioneer and author of Why Bother?, helping readers discover the desire for what’s next in their lives. As an entrepreneur and educator, Jennifer has offered women’s retreats for over 25 years and reaches over 20,000 subscribers weekly. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Jennifer was inspired to write the book, Why Bother?

• How she realized that “holding her mistakes close” was actually holding her back

• How our past—especially our family of origin—affects our current lives

• Why it’s important to go beyond the idea that all of our creative endeavors must be useful or practical (and how that belief holds us back from trying new things)

Resources mentioned:

• JenniferLouden.com

• Jennifer’s Book, Why Bother?

• Instagram: @jenlouden

• Facebook: Jennifer Louden

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Jennifer: What we know from the way our brains are built is it seems like it's much more of our default to be hard on ourselves than kind to ourselves. We do have, self-compassion built into our brain structure. We could call it, but it seems to need much more practice in activation. Then the ability to be critical.

Nancy: Why bother.

What's the point to what comes next? When I recorded this podcast with Jennifer Louden we were asking those questions in the context of a midlife crisis and personal development. But today, as I typed those questions, I'm struck with how they fit in the context of our larger world. As I record this intro, the world, we know it is in the midst of an upheaval.

One that in my opinion was a long time coming, but one that begs us to ask these questions in a different way. What's the point, what comes next? You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Listen to this podcast. I challenge you to see it through the lens of not only your personal life, but on the larger scale of our collective culture. Why should you bother? What's the point? What comes next? What's the point and why bother are two questions? I ask myself a lot, especially these days, I guess today Jennifer Louden takes these questions and expands on them in a comprehensive, approachable, beautifully written book called Why bother.

Jennifer Louden is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self care with her 1992 bestselling debut book, the woman's comfort book. She's the author of six additional books, including the woman's retreat book, the life organizer, and why. With close to a million copies of her books in print in nine languages.

Her work has been featured in people USA today, CNN and Brené brown books, daring, greatly and dare to lead as an entrepreneur and educator. Jennifer has offered women's retreats for over 25 years and our email newsletter reaches 20,000 subscribers weekly. She lives in Boulder county, Colorado. Jen is another one of my favorite teachers.

She models the idea that we are all in this together and trying to figure it out her book, why bother is incredible as Tara Moore says on the back cover, I'm telling you this book has never been written before, which is saying something in the self-help personal development space on this podcast. Jen and I talk about why she was inspired to write the book.

Why buy. How she realized that holding her mistakes close was holding her back, how our past, especially with our family of origin affects our current lives and getting beyond the idea that all our creative endeavors have to be useful or practical and how that belief keeps us from being creative and trying new things.

I am so excited today to bring you Jen Louden. I am. She's another person. I'm a fan girl of I've been following her for a long time and I'm welcome, Jen. So glad to hear.

Jennifer: I'm so glad that I'm here. And I just want you to know, I flossed the spinach out of my teeth before.

Nancy: That's great. Thank you. So Jen has just written a new book called why bother and on the back of the book is one of another, one of my favorite people.

Tara Moore said, I'm telling you this book has never been written before, which as you know is a huge compliment. So when I saw that, I was like, oh, come on. What did she pay Tara to have her say that? But I tell you people, this book has never been written before after reading it. So it encompasses everything, like it really encompasses the idea of what, of, how you get in your own way, how you engage in self care.

What do you do when you hit a crisis? How you get yourself through, like you could pick it up in a variety areas. In a variety of places in your life and find ways.

Jennifer: Oh, thank you.

Nancy: And you're welcome. So I I just love it. So let's dive in for following you for awhile. You used to talk about getting your scary shit done and and that was a big theme and why bother, really gets at that from a larger perspective.

Jennifer:. We circle around certain ideas in our work and our life, no matter what our medium, no matter what we're doing. And there's an idea in the book that encompasses that I've come to call it signature themes.

And I went to film school many years ago. And know that was something we learned in film school. Like our authors have signature themes and painters have signature things. People do to a signature theme of mine has always been how do I help myself and others make more of what we want, whatever that is.

So Get Your Scary Shit Done was one iteration of that. And some of the same tools that I use there, I built on for this book and this book really at first, it was for a couple particular people. I really believe when you're writing a book, it's very useful to have a particular reader in mind. So I had four people in.

Yeah. One was a woman who had never done anything she wanted. She had lived for everyone else and woke up one day and went, I hate everything about my life. I'm leaving my husband, but I don't know what I want. I don't know what I want. Another person had been really successful and was like, okay, I've done it.

And now. I don't know if I want to do it again because I know what it takes. And and so on. So I had this sort of middle-aged woman in mind, but then once I started talking about the book and sharing some of the ideas before it was published, I had people say, oh, My God. I was talking about the book to my 22 year old grandchild and they wanted, and I was talking to them and my nephew came to this and he's like, why aren't you writing this just for women.

I am in my why bother period. And so then I brought it up more stories and more perspectives because I also realized that I had seen it from the point of view of my life at these really big junctures in life. When you're faced with this question, what's the point and what do I want the point to be?

But he can also come through in little ways, right? It can come through in a day. It can come through in a way you need to change a project or reconnect with your spouse or your partner.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. Cause I think it does come up. Why bother comes up both times, like it doesn't have to be, I'm laying in bed at night, in a crisis being like, oh, what's the point?

It will come when I'm fighting with my husband and, writing a book, launching a podcast, right?

Jennifer: There's so many things like when you get to this place in your job and you're like, okay, What's not working. And I do want to say that we don't all use the words, why bother we use what's the point who cares?

She will never change. This is good enough. I it's too late. I'm too old. We have lots of ways that we language the fact that we believe there's no reason to bother.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All set. So one thing I loved, I picked a lot of little things to ask you about that were in the book. One thing I loved is there's so much out there about pick your next big thing and live your big, bold, beautiful life.

And I appreciated when you went through the things that. Stay that get in our way. One of them was it doesn't have to be such a grand thing. Like I don't have a grand thing, so it's why bother doing anything. And I loved that because that's one of mine. So of course I'm going to love it. But also I think a lot of my clients struggle with, they just want to have a good life and feel good in it.

They don't necessarily want to be climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or being on Oprah. Any of that stuff. So can you talk about that a little bit?

Jennifer: I mean, talk about a dominant culture story that is in the water and we drink it and, you used the word, just,

I just want a good life!?!? (laughter) I want a life that I lay down at night and I go, oh man, that was a good day. We all know intellectually. We read, lists of them, Kevin Kelly, the journalist and technology guy. Just put out a list of 62 things, and they're all like, it's not, I want to be famous, you want to be, have a good life, basically is his list. So we know this intellectually, but then we go on social media. Or then we watch Beyonce doing Beyonce thing, and then we're like, oh, holy shit. I'm not Beyonce. And it's a real, it's a real act of self love to know what we want and what size we want our life to.

What are you going to do? Yeah. Calm down go sit in the garden.

Nancy: Yes. And five star review because I almost, when I saw you had, cause I checked, before we came on and I was like, oh no, I just, because what if you get a four star, because now you have all these five stars, so the bar has been set.

Jennifer: I've got four stars in good reads.

I got a couple three stars on good reads, so that's okay. Okay. I'm getting used to it.

Nancy: The bubble has popped. Because I do think for me the why bother question popped up for those little things.

Jennifer: Sure. Makes up our life.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's true.

Jennifer: And it all goes back to, you said that this book encompasses so many things and it really does encompass self care in that if we're not taking care of our basic needs, then we're going to be even more likely to be hijacked by that story of I'm no good.

If I'm not beyond.

Nancy: Because I feel like, Because that clarify, I just because it's not an encompassed, so many things that I think don't get encompassed like it, instead of starting at step five and jumping forward, if you start at step one on the self care and the questioning and the inner critic and the mistakes and you really get the basic.

And do the depth of the basics that I think a lot of people in the self-help world just skip over because they're not sexy. They're not actually, but man, they are necessary.

Jennifer: So I, I wrote a post once that something about self care is not. Doesn't make you a goddess or something. It was funnier than that.

But I think because self care has become a $2 billion a year industry, it's all about the spa and the $700 scented candle. I hope there isn't one that really costs that much wine of Jayden. All of these things it's all grouped out. And lately my self-care is hormone replacement supernot sexy.

Jennifer: Yeah, getting it, drinking enough water, not eating so much sugar.

Nancy: exactly. And it's all individually. That's the, that's what I appreciated. Is it saying, what do you need for self care?

Jennifer: We've been sheltered. We sheltered in place pretty early. And we have not been going out on the mountain trails that we usually run on the weekends because they're pretty narrow. And at first they were really crowded and were like, oh, it's probably just a good idea to stay away from them.

But yeah, this past weekend we got up early and we went up and it was hard. It was raining. So it was hardly there because in Colorado, if it rains people like, oh, you must stay in doors. And so I felt really safe and who was great. And I've only lived here five years. I missed the green so much. No one else could tell me that self care for me is getting in the green for somebody else would be like, what are you talking about? For some people getting their nails done is self care for me it is torture.

Nancy: that I know is going to chip off and 2.5 seconds (laughter)

Jennifer: in two hours

Nancy: hours. Exactly. Yeah, no, but yes, my mom, she loves it. That's her. Treat to herself. Beautiful.

Jennifer: She looks down at those nails. And all I do is see those chips.

Nancy: Yeah. But she has a relationship with her person and they chat. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Very well. Very well said. Okay. For my, a lot of my work is around inner critic and being kind to yourself and I call the inner critic a monger is it's they spread propaganda and that's what a monger does. I love how you say we hold our mistakes close.

That was, so that phrase was so perfect because that is totally what we do. Can you talk a little more about that?

Jennifer: What we know from the way our brains are built is it seems like it's much more of our default to be hard on ourselves than kind to ourselves. We do have, self-compassion built into our brain structure.

We could call it, but it seems to need much more practice in activation, then the ability to be critical and there's different theories about it, but who knows, we all have experienced that. So the other, so that's part of it. The other part of it is we are afraid not of change. We are not afraid of having what we want.

You do not. I'm going to say you're not afraid of success. I think that's bull. I think what we're afraid of is being undefended. Because our primitive parts, our older parts of our brain and nervous system are like, I will be eaten. I will die consciously. Don't think that. So our mistakes become a way to stay defended and replaying them in this very harsh way is a way to say, look what you shouldn't do.

Don't do that again. You'll stay defended. And of course, then we have what everyone knows about the negativity bias in our brain. So that's also helping reinforce. Look, don't do that. You did, that. You did that. That you did that. We'll do that. And when I look at that, are you sure you saw it right?

Nancy: Let's replay it again, just in case

Jennifer, just in case, say three in the morning. Depending on your power, your post-menopausal stage.

Nancy: Exactly.

Give me a little more to beat yourself up about

Jennifer: we will have to changes sheets because they are soaking wet.

Nancy: Yeah. So I liked that idea of the safety. That we are. Because what, again, the message is, if you can't be kind to yourself, then there's something wrong with you, and instead it's the opposite.

Jennifer: Exactly. So much. I think of studying the brain is helpful for us because it makes us realize, oh, I'm a mammal.

Yes, I'm a mammal. And I'm wired the way all of these other mammals are wired. Plus I have this super sophisticated brain on top of it. And then we can begin to have so much more of a sense of. Oh, that's so adorable that I do that instead of I am oh, screwed up and I have to fix myself. I really think that part of that.

A couple of real disservices, the self-help personal growth coaching world has done to people. And I don't think for any reason on purpose, it's just crept in is that self-improvement is about fixing something that's wrong. Yeah. Instead of I'm doing this thing that bug s me, or I want more of that or what would it be like to grow in that direction?

No, it's such a different feeling in my body than if I could just stop eating so much cheese that I would finally be good enough.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Correct.

Even in my work, I used to spend a lot of time when I first started on helping people figure out what their inner critic looked like, and let's draw a picture and let's really dive into it. And what does it say, blah, blah, blah. And then I finally realized they know that's not the problem, once it's, once they could start recognizing it.

Pulling it apart from who they are,

Jennifer: which is so essential, right? Yeah.

Nancy: Then they got it. They don't need to work anymore on getting to know that voice It would just cause more anxiety and more am I doing it right? What they need help with is figuring out, and I call the voice of self-compassion the biggest fan. Figuring out, what is that voice sound like? And how can I talk to myself in that voice, which is almost always with curiosity.

Jennifer: Yes. And can I trust that voice? That's such a huge part of my experience is the old story myth, belief that a lot of us got from school or parents or whatever that yeah. The only way to succeed is to be hard on yourself. Yes. And thank God we have this huge body of research. Now that doesn't know that actually makes you go more towards numbing and more towards habits that don't make you feel good and away from real challenges and more into the fixed.

Nancy: But when you have it's so hard to let belief go where then you've been indoctrinated in it. I know for me that's. Yeah. And that's the thing I appreciate about your book is that, people would be like, you've written all these books, I'd be kind to yourself and you're like the master at beating yourself up.

Jennifer: Oh, sick of hearing that. And I would, first of all, I was so sick of hearing it. And then I would also be like, you have no idea you're wrong right inside my head, like on the outside, I'd go. Okay. But then I'd be like, I actually know the way to do this. And that's push myself harder on myself and beat myself up more.

I cannot stand the way you talk to her. Wow. Oh oh, fair enough. I'm my God. Okay. I could be really ashamed of this right now, or I could be really compassionate with myself right now and say, wow, you're right. I get it. Yeah. I remember that moment really well. I wanted to hide, I wanted to run a high and say, no, you're wrong.

Nancy: Yeah, but that's an awesome husband.

Jennifer: He's already got a big head. Everybody loves him because of how he comes across in the book. And that made him a monster. (laughter)

Nancy: That's great. You talk about security and action. Are the keys to moving beyond that negative thinking, and I'd never heard it presented in that way, but that's so freaking true.

Jennifer: Hey, I think that's been one of my gifts as a facilitator and teacher, is that ability to make people feel safe and start to internalize that. And then to also realize that it is, there is nothing about this, that you don't know how to do. Actually know how to take the next step and then pause and go.

What do I know now? And take the next step. You've been doing it your whole life, but that big, beautiful brain of yours we were talking about earlier. It's just getting in the way and going, are you sure that's the right next step? Do you remember that mistake you made?

Nancy: Let's go back and take an inventory.

Jennifer: Let's write them all down, watercolor their portraits.

Nancy: So it is just about stopping when you hear that and asking what's the next..

Jennifer: Yes. I think, there's, when, since we're talking about being stuck now, one of the things that I wrote in the book is that the thing that kept me stuck way past the natural point of the grief and loss of those period that I particularly write about in the book, there's more than one period of my life that I read about.

It was being cruel to myself. So I think if the practice that we find, however, we internalize it. However we learn. However, we put it together is that we understand that self cruelty may naturally occur, but we can let it pass on by like the clouds that are gathering and passing by outside the window.

And we can pay attention to the sky. And the sky is our, I think in my understanding is. Essential goodness that we have right. This, and we see it like right now so much during this pandemic, we see people being as we see people being incredibly stupid and awful, but forget about that, we also see people being so kind and, howling at eight o'clock at night in Colorado.

And I'm sure other states, clapping and beating pots and pans and raising money and. Sending cards to people they don't know, and in assisted living. And that is our nature. And we can be friend that and trust it in those moments of. The self cruelty and judgment coming through, like they'll, it'll still come through the weather system, but we can put our attention on that natural impulse to be kind to others and then extend it to ourselves.

Nancy: So it isn't something that you've healed.

Jennifer: Oh, I don't know. I feel like nothing is fixed. I don't even know what anything is anymore. I think the older, And the more I learn or be, or breeds the more I'm like, I have no idea who I am. I have no idea what's up or down. I really feel like I live in more and more of a question of, I don't know anything so it to heal sounds so permanent.

Nancy: No, totally. It was a loaded question.

Jennifer: I feel like, oh, and I said this in the book. Yeah. I don't know anything until I look back and then I go, oh, look at that. Or someone else reflects it to me and I'd go, oh yeah. And I say, and so many business and self-help books, they start with the great, here's the story of my horrible experience.

And here's the story of my triumph. And now I will show you how to do it too. And I write, I wrote in the book, I don't have one of those stories. I don't, I have moments of looking back and going shit. Things are getting better.

Nancy: Cause even the story you tell there's a, that's a pretty impactful.

Yeah. I liked how then you were like, and even after that, I wasn't like shazam I see the world.

Jennifer: And in fact, I didn't remember that story or tell anybody else about it for years. So it wasn't like I rushed home and said to Bob, you'll never believe what happened. And it wasn't like when I was writing the memoir that I wrote before this book that never worked, I didn't write that story in the memoir.

It completely escaped me. Yeah, I think it's interesting because we are mysteries to ourselves. Now we want to pin ourselves down like a butterfly, a dead butterfly with pins at we're not we're, this everything's fine. Tells us we may not need to have a self. We may not have a fixed self. We may we're debating it.

But, so that gives me a sense of just so much. It's just all so funny,

all this whole human thing oh my God, we are all hysterical.

Nancy: But I like I'll say the clients. Spent all my life looking out to figure it out. Like they, they know better. Yes. And once I turned it in, it was like, oh, there's so much here. And I think that's where the curiosity started.

It be like, oh, this is fascinating. There's all this stuff here that I'd been trying to get rid of because they didn't approve of it. Yes.

Jennifer: Beautifully said. That turning towards our own opinion that self-trust not because it's right. Or because someone else's, someone else gives it the stamp of approval, but because we.

It's our experience. This is my experience. Huh? Can I value it? Can I see it because it's mine. Yeah. And maybe I'll take action based on it. Maybe that actual work, maybe it won't, but that's not the validation I'm looking for. I think thing that really can drive me crazy is when people are like, oh, I listened to my intuition and then everything worked out and I'm like, that's great, but that's.

Besides the point is you listen.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, exactly. That's so well said. It doesn't matter if it works.

Jennifer: we think I used to think self-trust meant I listened and it worked out and therefore I

Nancy: was right. Yes. Because we're so about the being, right.

Jennifer: Yeah. And then I would like, if I was fighting with Bob and something, wouldn't go, I wouldn't be able to, he has an incredible memory. He's a scientist and he's just he can just argue until the cows come home and I have a mind that's I don't remember what I said two minutes ago. And I've been like that my whole life.. So I'll be like, oh my God what I'll just lose.

I would lose myself entirely in our moments of something's not right. And it's taken me so long to just turn towards myself and go. I don't know what I said two minutes ago, but I'm experiencing this now. I can trust myself first and then you just share that, but not because it's right and I'm going to win.

Nancy: No. That's. Yes. Yeah. Cause I just, the idea of I'm going to hold on to that one, man, because I still have the, I listened to my intuition

Jennifer: like divine, get it right thing. We don't even know what intuition is. And we think mostly it's probably a ton of experience that you've internalized into your non-conscious awareness, and we

Nancy: AND we don't even know what right is no.

Jennifer: Right

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing that I I loved that you devoted the whole section to your anger matters. Yes. Speaking of, trusting yourself So much of the message of just move forward. Don't look in the past, prevents us from seeing these messages because you share a story from your past and how it influenced your future when it comes to how you deal with anger and obviously being a therapist, I'm a big believer.

But I think that's some about how your past affects your future. But I think that's something that people, you know, that in the self-help industry were like, oh, we're just move forward. We don't look in the past. We're just moving forward. And we miss this stuff.

Jennifer: Yes. And also we're supposed to be positive all the time.

Yes.

Nancy: That makes me so mad. I'm with you. I devoted a whole chapter in my book to that being positive drives me crazy.

Jennifer: I'm not positive right now. Really pissed off. I'm pissed off and now I have to feel that. And then I have to decide if, what, how I want to do something about it. I don't want to ignore it because there's so much political action in that there's so much, when we ignore it, my simple point is when we ignore it over and over again, not only can we not make it sick, but it can be a factor in illness.

It's not anger. Doesn't make us sick by itself. And it's a fact can be a factor in illness. It seems to be from multiple studies. But yeah. Can easily lose why we bother. And I'm not saying we're going to walk around being angry, wake up first thing in the morning. What am I angry about? And that's what I'm going to bother about.

But the story of my mom, my dad telling my mom, she couldn't work, which is the story in the book. I think you're talking about is, was the most angry. I think I ever went. I'm pretty damn sure I was ever at my father who I totally had on a pedestal and. Because I couldn't didn't know what to do with it, because I was definitely raised in a household where women were not supposed to be angry.

Nancy: . Because the idea then was that as you became an adult, then you were empowering women to not be your mom.

Jennifer: Exactly to have grace. .

And to be able to bother about what you want to bother about,

Nancy: but you weren't empowering yourself. You were empowering other women. Yeah. I didn't see the connection

Jennifer:. I didn't see the connection. And somehow making that connection was really important for me going, this is what I do because there's a big thread in the book.

I think. Maybe it's not as clear to other people as it is to me after re writing it and reading it. I read it for the audio book I had to read. The whole damn thing is that I struggled with my work and how to get my bother on so many times in my life, because I wasn't accepting what I would call my Dharma that I wasn't accepting what was mine to do and what I couldn't help, but do I wanted to do something else, something different. So I kept watching it and rejecting it and judging it and not fully committing to it. I don't know whether that's true for anyone else. I'm not saying, I mean that everyone has something that they have to do in life and accept, but it truly was true for me.

Nancy: Because that's what I've loved about following you, prob. 10 12 years is that you're very honest with when you're struggling and what you've learned and how you figured it out. And so a lot of times I would go to your posts to just be like, oh, it's okay. Yeah.

Jennifer: How come we're not? I remember telling my daughter when she just turned 26 the day when everything goes the way you want, that's the day to look for the unicorns and go buy the lottery ticket.

Jennifer: That's really rare.

No, and that's not a bitter statement. That's not a then why bother? Oh, this is life. Life is so messy. And so I went predictable and right before you and I got on the batteries in my keyboard went out, I'm like, oh, wait, a teeny tiny thing, but that's what happens or you're just about to go on a podcast with someone and like suddenly you can't use your keyboard

On the platform, but back to your positive thinking thing, I just had a client reach out and she was, she said, I'm having a bad day. And I've been having such a good such good days. And now I'm having a bad day and I've been trying to talk to you, get in my biggest fan and get myself.

And it's just not working. And so I'm doing it wrong. And so I, I work with my clients via Voxer, so I voxed her back, which is a walkie talkie app type thing. So they can, we talk to each other multiple times in a day. And so I go Vox back to her and I was like, you're not this isn't a monger attack.

You don't, you're not in a bad mood because your inner critic is talking. You're just in a bad mood and you don't need to get out of that. But this isn't a mindset shift. This is just an owning where you are place. And she was like, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought about it like that. So I think anytime we're in a, to your anytime we're struggling or angry or overwhelmed, we're like I got to get out of this as quickly as possible because I'm doing something wrong.

Wow. Instead of no you're being a human, right?

Jennifer: There's a practice. I think it's a little bit in the book, but it's definitely an audio. There's all these extra things that go with the book and there's a URLs throughout the book. This, they go here and I made an audio for this, and this was a profound practice.

I think I learned like seven or eight years ago. So I started meditating at a very young age. And learned a lot of different meditation techniques, but I didn't learn this until my late adulthood. And that is to welcome what we're experiencing to say hi to it, to say this too, or hi, or that wonderful Rumi point poem, the guests.

That to me has been such a profound and really speaks to what your client is going through today. And I, know, I have to welcome what I'm feeling so many times a day, so many times a day, I'll stop to put my hand on my heart and go up. Huh I'm feeling I'm really missing my kids. We haven't seen them in months instead of just rushing past it or papering it over judging.

Nancy: Yeah. We all have our things, our statements of dis dismissing it, missing. And not trusting that it's that if it's a feeling it's there. It's

Jennifer: it’s here. And what my meditation teacher said was what is met can move.

I love that. Yeah.

Jennifer: I have to remember that a lot. What would I say no time for, or too painful or there's nothing I can do about it. Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps at camp. It just gets heavier and heavier

Nancy:. Because that's a funny, my mom she's. Seventies, late seventies.

And she loves the phrase for a long time. She and I would go back and forth because she loves the phrase soldier on, and that's one of her generational, suck it up, soldier on, keep going. And so she and I, after when my dad died, she was like, you say you hate soldier on, but that's what I'm doing.

And I was like, no soldier on means you just go and you don't feel anything. I'm just going to stiff upper lip it. And I said, what you're doing is feeling the sadness and living your life. And that's what we need to do. We need to be grieving, but also living. And we're trying to figure out that balance, right.

Jennifer:

And that balance and in deep grief sometimes. We do whatever we can to get through the day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. She kept calling me saying, I'm doing what you're telling me to do. I'm doing the emotions thing and I'm still feeling it. And I was like good God, your partner, or 53 years just died.

So yeah.

Jennifer: Got news for you. It’s never going to stop

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that moment shifted for her, this soldier on belief because she wouldn't do anything. But for you.

Jennifer: I think that reminds me of one of the ideas in the book. The self-compassionate grit to think that I would, grit just was grind.

And I just grind myself down to a rubble or self-compassion was quitting. It's oh, that's too hard with myself. I'll give up and take a nap. And then marrying the two to me was so profound. And so it made, it sounds like such an obvious idea now, but it was such like, oh wow. I can keep, I can stay in action.

I can work on the things that are hard. While I'm being kind to myself while I'm being kind to myself.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's on second character in my work is the BFF who is the false self-compassion like the go ahead. I have the third beer. And the BFF, all that, like that's where I would dance all the time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So think that's the end of my questions,

but I absolutely loved talking to you and I highly recommend, is there anything else you want to share about the book that you want people to pull from that I didn't give you the chance to shatter? I guess

Jennifer: maybe two things, one that asking why bother in your way that you ask whoever, right now, if you just listen into yourself, what have you been saying lately about like it's too late or I messed that up, so I don't get a second chance or.

He won't change, whatever it is what we're actually, we're not using the curiosity that you referenced earlier. We think we know the answer and that's really the big, first idea in the book. When you're asking why bother you think, the answer. But you really don't, you don't. And until you ask with true curiosity and until you awaken, and here's the second thing, a real freshened relationship with desire itself, not outcome.

Yes. Don't know what you bother about. And mostly what gets us not entirely, but mostly what gets us into this. Why bother periods is that we have turned our back on we're afraid of we have twisted off the flow of desire in our lives, and we won't let ourselves know what we want, enjoy what we want, pay attention to it.

And that's what grinds us down now. Lack of self care and societal and structural things like sexism and racism. And there's lots of other factors I find when we're talking about what we can influence directly. I find that desire is the key.

Nancy: Yeah, because you talk about that with the climate change, right?

How you had gotten into a, why bother. That's a great example.

Jennifer: I still do some days

I'm like really, I still got to keep working on conversation. Can we just think about both of them have to think time. Holy moly. But yeah, so for me, I've been an environmentalist since I was very young. My parents were always like, where did you come from? Not something I, I was raised in a very.

You played golf and tennis kinda lived in the country club kind of house. And my dad would be like your little environmentalist. And then I remember a little bit, little he'd be like, wow, you were right. You were right. But I gave, never gave up. I was still signed petitions and give money and such, but I really was falling into that internal, like it's too late.

It's too late. And yet I would get so pissed off to talk about anger again. When a friend would say, for example, I don't have kids and it's going to be bad after I'm dead. So I'm just going to keep flying around the world everywhere I went. And I was just like, I just want to stab you. So I had to start paying attention to that while I was writing the book and go, oh, this is where I got to get my bother on in some ways.

So I started learning more reading, more listening in on conference calls. Sharing stuff on social media. I had these two beautiful blog posts I heavily researched to share, but then the dynamic happened then oh, I don't think people want to be reading about climate change. I'm going to have to wait and save those for when we have a little bit more bandwidth right now, then in the future, rather, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because one of the places, the why bother where I get, where I say, why bother is anything creative?

Jennifer: Interesting really. Tell me more about that.

Nancy: What are you going to do with it.? Where's it going to go? If I make a, if I make a picture or do some painting, then I throw it away or I hang it up or it's just like, why bother?

Jennifer: Yeah. So that's such a beautiful example of how we can mixed together the desire that arises in you, the desire to create. Maybe can you tell me more? Is it texture? Is it color? What is, tell me more about that desire.

Nancy: It's even, because I guess directly it would be like, even in writing something, like if I'm going to write something, it needs to be publishable on my blog or in a book.

I can't write for the joy of writing.

Jennifer: So that's a place that we can really, you just said it's Why bother? Because we have fused. The desire to create with words let's say, and have fun and be in that flow state and be curious, and maybe be a little itchy scratchy at the end, like where your craft might meet.

Like you have a vision and your craft isn't quite there and hang out there. And that's the desire. And then the culture that we were talking about at the beginning of the interview comes in and says so what the patriarchal culture, by the way, comes in and says why would you waste your time on that?

It's not going to get anything, right? So our desires become a consumer object. That really is it's like someone else is going to consume it. You're not going to consume it, but then they're going to consume something of yours back. And we, and then it's our life force just goes, it's like water in the desert.

Nancy: Yeah, that's so true because then you take that story. You take that away then the next one is you aren't much of a writer. Of course,

Jennifer: Because we don't like to be again, that defended that defendant, that emotional system, we don't like to be in the unknown playing until we have found ways to make ourselves feel defended in playing.

So at first we have to walk into that gap. There's a story in the book about a woman who's been really successful. She was a client. Really successful running her family's business and she was getting ready to, so I'd made a lot of money, had done tons of kudos in her community from her family. It was time to leave and she wanted to start writing and she was like, but I won't be able to do it as well.

As I've done this business, I'm not going to get any accolades or kudos, who knows if I'll ever do anything with it. And she was walking right into that gap. And in that gap is where all the juiciness and desire in life is. So we have to find ways to be safe there and curious to feel defended and curious.

And it's not that difficult. It's just a practice. Like anything else? Just like you've learned to do with the critic with people. Okay. It's a practice it's huh? Okay. So I actually. I don't know how I'm going to do this. What do I know? I know that I really been loving Antonio Machado's poetry.

Okay. That's one thing I know what if I get the book down and pick some words out and set a timer for 15 minutes to play with words, but oh my God, you got to be kidding me. That's going to be so pointless. It's not going to be like his poetry. It's okay, true. True enough. But where's that desire?

Is that worth it to me because I feel it because I am here and I promise you everybody. What I have learned so many times over is when we can practice that. The life force returns to us, desire, returns to us. And then we can begin to say huh. You know what? I think I actually want to learn more about ho a tree.

All right. We're not turning into a big project. That's what we all do.

Nancy: I'm going to write every day for a half an hour, blah, blah, blah.

Jennifer: And instead it's I'm going to get a book. I'm going to get married all over his book about photo. No. I looked down in no, that's too technical. Oh, I'm going to get that book about poetry as medicine and therapy. And I'm just going to play with a little bit, open a page at random and play with it.

And I'm just going to keep attending to that desire. I'll tell you exactly how it shown up in my life. Right now. I got a bunch of collage stuff from my down basement and I have it on the dining room table. And I've been calling. Period. No, one's going to see it. It's not going to get me anything. Wow.

And uploaded on Instagram, I'm not going to be like, oh, Jan, your collages are so cool. I'm just doing it. I have this hour in the day where my husband makes dinner. Bob love him. And he likes me to stay near him while he's making dinner. And I don't drink, which is.

He makes dinner and he has a cocktail and I love drinking, but it just doesn't, it's not something I want to do every day. It's not good for so many things. And it's a more of a weekend thing. And so I've been getting in the habit of having a glass of wine with him or a drink, and I'm like, I don't want to do that.

So what do I do? I'm like what do you desire? I desired art . Oh, would you have same thing? Same everything. You've said everything, but what's it going to get you? And where are you going to do with it? And you're not any good at it. And you're going to get paint all over the dining room table. And so collage go back to collage and just, oh my God, it's making me so happy

Nancy: and not even and I'm good at this is going to be a manifesting, everything I'm collaging.

Jennifer: Oh no I made this collage with a zebra. We got these cards when we were in Patagonia. Of this. Oh yeah. No, it was weird. Weird. I just want to play with color and paper and texture and yeah

Nancy: , I love that because I want to, because I love how you, I'm so glad that you walked us through that example, with the collage and my writing example.

Because it is such a cool of how you attended to the security and

Jennifer: exactly right. Yeah . Yes. So this is not, it's not difficult to do y'all, but it is so essential without this juicy relationship with desire. Unattached to outcome, unattached to the consumer culture, unattached to the patriarchy. We just lose our joy for life.

We lose our ability and we lose our ability and our energy to create the things we do want. Let's say I want my book to sell well that's something I really want. Will I get it or not? I don't know. I can't control that. The desire that I feel when I make a collage or the desire, I feel like to show up for this conversation and be really here with you.

Those will fuel some of the harder actions I have to take, like reaching out to people who don't return my emails. I'm reaching out to media that ignores me, thing. So it does feed the bigger picture, but it's not why we.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. That's an important caveat. Yeah. Because

Jennifer: then that just puts flunks us right back into the, where we started.

Jennifer: Yeah. What you want to do y'all might not be art or creative or anything. It might be, I really want to make a pie. I don't know what I want to go play. I don't even eat pie. I want to make a box.

Nancy: Yeah. By, because I even recently started making bread.

I know it

dammit. I'm not like the whole time doing it. I'm like I just did it on Friday. I had so much fun. And we made two loaves and I'm like, we're not going to be able to eat two loaves. It's just my husband. And I am way making too much bread, like all that. And then I was like, who cares? We're making it's yeast and flour and water who cares.

I was like, but man, did I have you're not science minded and this is supposed to be about precision and you don't have precision, you're followed flighty, all that stuff. But then when I finished, I was like, I had so much fun.

Jennifer: This is beautiful. This is a beautiful example of following your desire and allowing it.

And then the noises there, the fonts are there. They're doing what they're doing, but you kept focusing on the pleasure, the needing the smells. This is a beautiful example, and we just need so much more of this. And when we're in a why bother question in our life or an area of our life, This is the, this is what turns it around.

Nancy: Ah, and we're going to end it on that note because that is perfect. Okay. People, I can't say enough. Good things. I'm right there with Tara Moore. This book has never been written before. Why bother discover the desire for what's next? We'll put a link in the show notes. Thank you, Jen, for showing up and walking us through this process in a really cool,

Jennifer: Hey, total pleasure.

It was so much fun.

Nancy: I loved this interview with Jen. She is someone I've admired from afar. So being able to interview her and pick her brain it was amazing. My biggest takeaway was the idea of how we talk to ourselves out of exploring our creativity or passions, because it isn't practice. Man. Oh man, is this something I do on a daily basis?

I walked away from this interview with new insight, into my own creativity and how I can open myself up to doing activities just because I think they'd be fun. Not because there are practical. Whoa. Isn't that a conscience? Again, this concept can be taken to what is happening in our larger national picture.

We are so afraid of taking imperfect action and doing it wrong. We forget that not taking action and rehashing all the ways we've done it wrong in the past. As Jen would say, holding our mistakes. Just keeps us stuck. We forget that each day we can do it differently. We can take small measured, imperfect action.

---

Episode 138: The Catch-22 Of "I Got This"

In today’s episode, I talk about “I got this” a behavior that we engage in when our monger is chatting at us and we’re stressed and anxious.

My Monger is always in my ear, saying: You got this. 

And while, to some, “I got this” might sound like empowered thinking, when it’s coming from my Monger, it certainly is not. 

Instead, it’s a clue that I’m on auto-pilot mode. 

Here’s what I mean:

Recently, after a full day of work, I was making dinner for my husband and doing a load of laundry at the same time. Telling my husband to plate up, I rushed downstairs to “flip a load,” as I call it. 

This is when my Monger started chiming in. “Hurry up!” it said. “You told your husband dinner was ready and now you’re downstairs messing with the laundry!”

And it struck me: I’d worked all day, cooked dinner, and now I was doing laundry—and my Monger was STILL going to shame me for not doing it fast enough?!

Good grief! 

But stories like this are common for me. For years, I lived in that message. I call this the catch-22 of “I got this.”

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• 3 ways to avoid this endless spiral of “I got this” thinking

• Why operating on autopilot is harmful—especially with high functioning anxiety

• How our Monger distorts our perspective

• And how that can affect our relationship with ourselves and with others

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Last week after a full day of work, as I was making dinner, I decided to throw a load of laundry in the washer. I finished dinner and told my husband to dish up his plate. And then I would be right back. I wanted to run down to the basement and put the laundry in the dryer. As I was in the basement, flipping the laundry as I call it, my Monger was chiming in.

“You told your husband dinner was ready and now you're downstairs, messing around with the laundry?!?” and it struck me. Are you kidding me? I worked all day cook dinner, and now I'm doing laundry and you're going to shame me for not doing it fast enough. Good grief.

You're listening to the happier approach the show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

This story is a common one. Four years. I lived in that message minus the realization at the end of that story, I call this the catch 22 of I got this. All this month we're talking about things that keep you stuck in one of those things. It's the myth our Monger constantly tell us I got this. So let me back up a bit and explain what I mean by I got this. I got, this is a behavior that we engage in when our monger is chatting at us and we're stressed and anxious. The more stressed we get, the more control we seek, and it is like the perfect match.

I want to unpack the laundry example a little bit, because it is such a common example and honestly, feels pretty benign, but can have some nasty side effects. That day had been stressful. I had a lot going on and my brain had been jumping from thing to thing all day long in squirrel like fashion.

So by the end of the day, my Monger was chiming in about everything. I ran down the stairs from my office, like the Tasmanian devil and started cooking. While I was cooking dinner. I'm sure my monger was there, to be honest, I didn't even notice her because even after years of doing this work, she still plays in my head largely unconsciously I'm familiar with my Monger chatting. I'm not saying it's pleasant or comfortable, but it is familiar. And that is something we forget, like any abusive relationship my line of what is normal or acceptable is skewed while someone else who hasn't lived much of their life with a very loud monger would be ah-gassed at what my monger says to me, for me, eh it's just another day at. The office.

So there I am cooking dinner and my Monger is beating me up because I was supposed to do laundry earlier in the day. I actually needed to do laundry the day before and I had officially run out of clean underwear that morning. This is where our monger get even more hard to shake because she had a point.

I was out of underwear. I needed to do laundry. And because I have an abusive relationship with my monger in my mind, I deserved her shame because I had dropped the ball and not done the laundry. And this is where it gets even stickier because I have a husband, a kind caring, super capable husband who could cook dinner or do laundry.

He would be willing to do anything I asked him to do. In fact, he had even offered to do the laundry earlier that day because he knew I was busy and also out of underwear. But did I ask him to help and actually put the laundry in the washing machine? No way I got this. My monger tells me you can't ask for help. That would be weak, or he wouldn't do it right.

So don't bother asking him anyways, I got this, our monger winds us up so much that we become consumed with being in control. As I said, it had been a stressful day, so I was already full of anxiety. One of the challenges of high functioning anxiety is the more anxious you get the more you push yourself.

When I came downstairs from my office and started manically making dinner and thinking about the laundry, I was primed for my Monger to jump all over me. At that point to the idea of taking a break or taking a breather was out of the question. It was perfect. We needed to eat, I need an underwear and I am the only one who can solve all these major problems.

I say that tongue in cheek, because that is what our monger does. She simultaneously punishes us for doing it wrong. Also convincing us we are the only ones who can do it. It's an abusive power trip. I'm an awful person for not being able to do it all. And I'm the only one who could do it. I ran downstairs to switch the laundry.

And my monger starts shaming me and here is where things changed here is where my biggest fan stepped in to say, wait a minute, what is happening here? Why are you shaming yourself when you're doing the laundry for your family? Now, before I go down the road of the biggest fan, I want to share what happens frequently in relationships I'm downstairs.

And my monger starts telling me to hurry up and rather than my biggest fan, who is the voice of kindness and wisdom, my BFF steps in that voice of false self-compassion. And she says where is your husband? And all this, it must be nice that he could just relax on the couch while you run around like a chicken with your head cut off.

So then my BFF gets me all fired up. I head upstairs and I start yelling at my husband about how the power dynamic is off and I do everything and he's too lazy on and on. See what happened there. My Monger was chatting so much. I couldn't take it anymore. So my BFF stepped in to protect me and put the blame on my husband, just in this simple benign example, you can see how the monger and the BFF can run a muck and really wreck havoc in our lives.

But this time, my BFF didn't step in before my biggest fan reminded me that this was a storm of my creating. Interestingly, as this insight was happening to me, my husband came downstairs and I shared it with him and he said, how can you think that I would be mad at you because you were downstairs doing laundry instead of being upstairs with me, that is so hurtful that you think of me as that much of a monster. I stood there, stunned. He was right. My husband is the most laid back kind, forgiving, gentle guy. And my monger can make him out to be a cruel judgmental jerk. I said to him, it has nothing to do with you because when my monger is talking to me and saying, hurry up, you told your husband dinner was ready.

And now you're downstairs messing around with the laundry. My mind is not picturing my husband yelling at me. My mind is picturing some distorted version of my husband yelling. So it isn't about him, which goes to the insidiousness of all this work. It is not a victimless crime. Now I have spread my self hatred onto him and he certainly doesn't deserve it.

In fact, he finds it downright hurtful that I would think of him as a monster. Okay. So how do you avoid this endless spiral of I got this thinking. The very first thing to realize is that I got this thinking creeps up most often when we're running on autopilot, this whole laundry dinner husband situation is a perfect example.

Functioning on autopilot. I had been pushing all day and I'd gone on to autopilot. Autopilot means my Monger is running the show. My to-do list is king and my worthiness is all tied up in my productivity. I let my monger go unchecked. And by the end of the day, she was in full. Control. If we want to stop, I got this thinking in its tracks we need to prevent this autopilot behavior. So here are three ways you can do just that.

Number one, put in regular stop gaps in the day. Taking regular breaks, going for a walk dancing in the office. Generally checking in with yourself and slowing down.

Number two, Acknowledging your feelings. This is important, especially right now, we have a lot going on both on a micro level in our day-to-day lives and on a macro level in the world at large, we are being challenged in our everyday lives, by a pandemic that is largely unknown and on a larger scale, our assumptions and biases around race and privilege are being challenged. We are seeing the world shift right before our eyes. This is anxiety provoking. And because of those of us with high functioning, anxiety are masters at avoiding our feelings.

It is easy to tell ourselves that what is happening in the larger world doesn't affect us or more so shouldn't affect us. It does. I have been reminding all my clients that even if you aren't actively engaging in what is happening in the world, it is still affecting you and your emotions.

Number three, be kind as you can see by the laundry example, these voices are insidious wily and persistent. We have to be kind to ourselves. I will regularly repeat to myself. You don't have all the answers and that's okay to borrow from the movie Frozen II “what's the next right thing to do now?”. So how could I have done that laundry day differently? I could have paused more during the day. I could have taken five minutes to mark the end of my workday and the start of my cooking dinner.

I could have acknowledged that my anxiety was high earlier in the day. And pause to see what was going on. I could have taken my husband up on his offer earlier in the day to start the laundry, I could have reminded myself that I didn't have to rush to move the laundry. I could have eaten dinner and then moved it.

Those are just a few ways I could have done it differently. Regular breaks, acknowledging feelings, and being kind notice your tendency to take over control to say to yourself, I got this. Our monger is insidious and it is challenging, but she doesn't have to win.

---

Episode 137: Redefining Self-Care and Reclaiming Sovereignty

In today’s episode, I am talking with Mara Glatzel, MSW, an intuitive coach, writer, and podcast host about self-care and owning our needs.

Which of these examples looks like a day of self-care for you?

A hike through the woods with your nearest and dearest and a picnic lunch.

A rambunctious night of games, drinks, and pizza with friends.

Sleeping in and having coffee in bed, followed by a granola bowl on the back deck.

A chance to read your new fiction book, some yard work, and a barbeque on the grill. 

Canceling plans to go canoeing because you just don’t feel good and need to rest.

Staying in bed all day, watching movies. 

We have a set definition of what self-care should look like. But the reality is that any and all of the above ideas can be self-care! 

For those of us with High Functioning Anxiety, we struggle with self-care. I mean, soul-nourishing, true downtime, really-giving-back-to-ourselves kind of self-care. 

And yet our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in over-functioning and a lack of self-loyalty. 

Sound familiar?

That’s why this month we’re talking about what keeps you stuck and how self-care (and lack thereof!) is one of those things. 

My guest today is Mara Glatzel, MSW, an intuitive coach, writer, and podcast host who helps perfectionists and people pleasers reclaim their sovereignty. She’s a queer, femme wife and mother of two, recovering control freak, and a human who deeply understands the impulse to relegate her needs to the bottom of a very long to-do list in an attempt to prove her worth. 

Mara also teaches everything she knows about identifying, honoring, and advocating for your needs in her 9-month online program, Tend. You can access her free training Revive: Self-Care That Works, hang with her on Instagram, or tune in to her weekly podcast, Needy.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• 3 ways to avoid this endless spiral of “I got this” thinking

• Why operating on autopilot is harmful—especially with high functioning anxiety

• How our Monger distorts our perspective

• And how that can affect our relationship with ourselves and with others

Resources mentioned:

• MaraGlatzel.com

• Revive: Self-Care That Works

• Needy Podcast

• Tend 9-month online program

• Instagram: @maraglatzel

• Facebook: Mara Glatzel

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Mara: That becoming your own sovereign leader of your own life means really turning towards yourself for confirmation, for information, for validation, for approval, and being the owner of your own. This,

Nancy: I have a question for you. Which of these examples is a day of self-care for you. Number one, a hike through the woods with your nearest and dearest and a picnic lunch followed by a rambunctious night of games, drinks, and pizza with friends.

Number two, sleeping in and having coffee in bed, followed by a granola bowl on the back deck and a chance to read your new fiction book, some work in the yard and a barbecue on the grill or number three, canceling plans to go canoeing because you just don't feel good and you need to rest. Staying in bed all day and watching movies, the correct answer is any and all of them can be self-care.

We have set a definition of what self care should look like the right way we talked about last week.

Your listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

What is self-care? According to my guest, Mara Glatzel self care is deep daily tending. I just love that!Oour theme for June is things that keep you stuck and self-care, or our lack of self-care is one of the things that keeps us stuck. Those of us with high functioning anxiety struggle with engaging in self-care?

Soul nourishing, true downtime, really giving back to ourselves self-care. Our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in overfunctioning and a lack of self loyalty. As Mara says, we have a hard time tending to ourselves. Mara Glatzel has a master's in social work. She's an intuitive coach writer and a podcast host of the podcast Needy, and she helps perfectionist and people-pleasers reclaim their sovereignty.

She's also a queer femme wife and mother of two, recovering control freak, and a human who deeply understands the impulse to relegate her needs to the bottom of a way long to do list in an attempt to prove her worth. Her superpower is saying what you need to hear when you need to hear it. And she is here to help you believe in yourself as much as she believes in you.

Mara has been one of my teachers for years. Her work takes a simple concept, self care and dives deep into it. Her Instagram feed regularly reminds me to pause and check in with myself. And she totally walks the talk. So I was thrilled when she agreed to share her wisdom on my podcast, Mara and I talk about her tagline, redefining self-care and reclaiming sovereignty, and what that means to her, how to prioritize yourself when you have overly prioritized others, how self-accountability is an act of self-love and why needs is such a bad word in our society and how she is reclaiming needs as a good thing.

I am so excited today to have Mara Glatzel on the podcast. I have followed Mara for a long time and just love her work. And I think you're going to love it too. So I'm just going to dive right in if that's cool. Your tagline is redefining self-care and reclaiming sovereignty.

What does that mean to you?

Mara: I've been working as a coach for a long time and about four or five years ago. I really pivoted my work towards helping people care for themselves, which of course is about the care. It's about meeting your needs on a daily basis. And it's also about healing the work in your relationship with yourself to know that you are deserving of having your needs met.

Much, it means that you're worthy and that you matter, and that you deserve a space in your own life, not only a space in your own life, but a space at the center of your life. And what I found was that a lot of conventional traditional self care advice was very prescriptive and really it's you would see this listicle of like here's 10 ways to take better care of yourself today.

And those things never really got to what I find most humans actually need in terms of support on a daily basis. And so by redefining your care, repurposing the idea of what it means to care for yourself so that it's not this prescriptive list of things that you check off, but instead the daily action.

It becomes the daily actions of being in relationship with yourself. So your care is responsive to whatever it is that you have going on. So whether that's, calling your insurance company to figure out something about your deductible or pouring yourself a glass of water, or, that calling up and talking to your kid's teacher, it's whatever the, your life requires that becomes the care.

That for so many of us we don't understand ourselves to be the sovereign leaders of our own lives. So instead of, looking outward for approval permission somebody else to say, you've done enough. Why don't you sit down and rest? Which of course never happens. We're all waiting for it.

Becoming your own sovereign leader of your own life means really turning towards yourself for confirmation, for information, for validation, for approval and being the owner of your own enough of this. And, it's amazing because in some ways these shifts can be slight, it's like a subtle reorientation.

And in other ways, it's this profound learning because of course we're conditioned to put other people before us to not want to be selfish to that we need to do all of these different things in order to be lovable in order to be worthy. And the shifts in our actions might be small, but the emotional underpinning can be enormous.

So I cover both in my work. I'd like to be both really tangible and also, deal with the messiness of being.

Nancy: Yeah, because, what's what I think I love about your work is that self-care is something, everyone fricking talks about self-care, but in the, and it's like a, one-off like, self-care like, make sure you do self-care, but you've devoted much of your, message to that depth of what self care means. So it's not just this, one-off make sure you take care of yourself thing. You call it daily tending and that idea that this is deeper than just taking a bubble bath, that sometimes it is, it's really showing up for yourself. And I think we give that a lot of lip service, but you really illustrate what that means and what that brings up.

Mara: Thank you. I try to, yeah. I think it's so funny because I'll all the time, we'll have, people are like, Mara, I'm a big problem. I need a big fix. I'm like, but are you drinking water? They're like, no, but I need your big guns. I'm like, what are you drinking water every day? And it's I say that sort of jokingly, but they are not drinking water.

Like we are not drinking water. And while I do think that a lot of us have. Tons of healing to do and tons of personal work to do. All of that requires energy. So if you don't have any energy, you're not going to have the energy to do that personal growth work. And we're continually beating ourselves up for not having the capacity to be introspective well, okay.

We need to work on the actual mechanics of. Of tending to our own capacity, to even have the energy, to have the conversation with ourselves about our bigger hopes and dreams, for example. And I find that people by and large beat themselves up for not having that capacity, but aren't doing the work to give themselves that capacity to begin with.

So it becomes this like tricky feedback loop. And so getting way back to the basics of things that. We already know we need, everybody knows you need it, but I'm really curious about, okay if you need it, why aren't you doing it? And

Nancy: What have you found for that?

Because that's across the board, a problem.

Mara: I've found that a lot of people that I work with are people who assumed a lot of responsibility when they were children. And so they have this feeling. Like I'm tired of taking care of myself. I'm tired of being responsible for everything.

And they tend to be people who are overly responsible for other people's stuff. And this idea of oh, like taking care of myself as one more thing that I have to put on the, the bottom of a very long list and, and met with the fact that we're a culture that is indoctrinated with this diet mentality concept of I need a big fancy splashy, thing we're going to here's my 10 point plan for reinventing myself this spring and daily tending.

So not sexy compared to that, it's boring. It's I'm going to drink my water again. I'm going to drink my water again. I'm going to drink my water again. But what I find is that what we're actually craving isn't that one-off self care, but actually the consistency of mattering to somebody on a daily basis.

And, you can matter to yourself. You can take care of yourself and this doesn't mean that we're islands, I think community care is also really important and relational care is really important, what we're actually aching for is that consistency, it's like we go back to.

I have small children, what they need is knowing, like they're going to get breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I'm going to put them to bed at the same time every day. I'm going to like, keep an eye on whether they're drinking enough water or they're super dehydrated. Did they take their vitamins?

We are, we still need that kind of care, even when we're adults. And that tending to our most basic daily needs provides this internal scaffolding energetically for us to be available, to do all of the things that we want to do. So if we put it at the end of the list, We're burning ourselves out without doing anything, to restore our energy.

And so I like to think about it as, front-loading our own care, which is really tending to our capacity to show up for. Whether I'm working in my business, I'm parenting, I'm gardening, I'm coaching, whatever I'm doing, it requires energy. And if I'm not tending to my energetic capacity, I have nothing left to give.

Nancy: That's what the other thing is the idea of so many times when we hear about self care, it's that idea of. I know the false self-compassion of go ahead. Do whatever you want. Sit in front of the TV, do nothing. But with the idea of daily tending, you're saying there's sometimes there's stuff you don't want to do, like call.

The credit card company or whatever and paying bills and that stuff is also tending

Mara: . Yeah. So it's a slippery slope. Self-love is really tricky because I think that we are, we're fed these kinds of like romcom ideas of self-love oh, like have the cupcakes, do whatever. And like I'm pro cupcakes, but.

I think this idea of love equals letting go of all of the boundaries, all of the things that you need isn't useful actually. And so I like to think about how accountability is love too and how we can be accountable to ourselves. And what's tricky about this for me and I know for other people as well is that we're not taught how to motivate ourselves through, with compassion, through our natural enthusiasm. I was taught I was raised to beat myself up to get from here to there because that's, and I assumed that's what everybody does. It's I just absorbed that from society. I don't, I can't remember anybody modeling that for me directly, but that was like what people do it sucks and you do it.

And. It took until I was in my thirties really, before I started to realize oh wow, I can be nice to myself and get something done, enjoy the process. I can speak to myself kindly. And when I think about that, self-love what that looks like for me now is when I make promises to myself, I'm going to try to move my body every day, or I'm going to try to drink enough water or, I'm going to try to get outside, get some sunshine, which is really important to me right now. And I'm not doing that. That's a time to get curious and have a conversation with myself. That sounds something like, Hey Mara, how'd you do this thing noticed you're not doing it.

Like what's going on. Do you need a different time of day? Do you need support? Are there tools that you require that you don't have, is there a creative approach that we can take to it? For me that self-love is not letting myself off the hook to what I know that I need while also having those conversations in a way that the like tone of my inner landscape is kind and compassionate.

It's assuming that I'm doing the best that I can. And not that I'm like. Some like spec on the ground that needs to be like, prodded from here to there with a lot of cruelty, which is totally how I used to relate to myself. And I find that contrary to popular belief, I actually get so much more done now, which is amazing, oh if I don't, if I'm not mean to myself, I'm going to wake up three months down the line, watching daytime TV, having not done anything and covered in Dorito dust or something like that. But actually it turns out I really like to be spoken to nice.

Okay. Yeah, we can do that thing. Okay. This person who's like running the show cares about me and so when I talk about reclaiming sovereignty too, that's what I'm talking about. It's like reclaiming the tone of what's happening, the quality of conversation in your inner landscape or your self-talk and being a benevolent leader.

Nancy: I love that a benevolent leader. That's amazing. Yeah, because that's a big a big part of my work is working with the title of my book is be kind to yourself, feel happier and still accomplish your goals. So that, because if that was a huge aha for me, when I realized, oh, wait, I don't need the shaming monger voice in my head all the time.

I could actually, and that idea that I get more done, when I. Even like stupid stuff like laundry, if I'm like, I'm not feeling it today. There will be a day in the next 24, there will be a time in the next 24 hours when I'm feeling it because I need laundry or because of oh, go down and do the laundry right now.

And when I forced myself to do it, it's not the same, the energetically it's so different, but it does get done. Yeah. When I release the control a little bit.

Mara: Totally. And also by whatever means necessary, I ask myself too, it's like, all right, you don't want to do the laundry.

That's fine. It's totally boring. You do it. I have two kids, so I do a lot of laundry so much. And I'm like what could I do to make it. Am I going to fold the laundry while watching Veronica Mars? Sure. Why not going to listen to my favorite podcast? It's what can I do?

I think that's the other thing that's amazing to me is that we were so strict with ourselves. It's like doing a good job, means this like Spartan experience where we're like buckling down and I'm like, could you put on some fun music, you have a snack, like good. You make this experience enjoyable.

Like you can do that. And it seems. Silly, but it changes the entire landscape of your experience of whatever you're doing. I hate doing dishes. I really do cleaning up. My kitchen is like my top tier least favorite chore. But I have to do it. That's just the reality of life.

And so then I think about how can I make this sustainable? How can I make this enjoyable? You know what's within my power to. Curate this experience. So that it's well-suited for me personally.

Nancy: Yeah. That's yeah. I love that. That's well said. So you're so the idea, because what it is that you going back, you said the internal scaffolding that this, tending to yourself, builds internal scaffolding.

So then you can move forward and do the other work. The big guns. And I think that is something that we miss when we're just like, oh yeah, self care. We miss that we're really, this will pay off later. I just wrote down internal scaffolding with a big circle around it, in my notes.

Okay. So this morning as I was walking the dog in the pouring down rain, even though I checked the radar and I thought it was going to not be raining I was listening to your podcast, which is called needy. I just remember being so jealous of that title because it's so perfect.

You say Needy is a podcast for humans with needs, particularly those who pretend they don't have them amen to that. I can't relate to that at all. Ha why do you think we, and this is a loaded question, but why do you think we, particularly as women pretend we don't have needs?

Mara: I think because we think people like us better.

And the reality might be that people like us better when we don't. I don't think that's I don't think we pluck that idea out of thin air. Going back to that rom com idea. It's I think, we very early on make the association that certain kinds of people are worthy of love and being needy. Like I love the, I also love the title of my project. Needy is such a compelling word for me because. On so many personal fronts, it's like that idea and don't be needy, and really what I'm saying is don't take up too much space. Don't make it too difficult for somebody to be in relationship with you, which you like if you dig just below the surface, there's this belief that I need to apologize for myself. Somehow I need to make up for myself in some way, by being convenient, by being palatable, by being easy to be in relationship with. And, there is so much hurt right under that surface of, just feeling like you're too much just feeling nobody has the time or the energy to really deal with you.

And. I remember feeling like I, if there was just like one person in the world that I wasn't too much for, that would be amazing. Yeah. So this, my work was really born out of this idea of, we still need other people. We still want to be in a relationship with other people, but what if I became that one person that I wasn't too much for?

And it's hard because sometimes you're like, I think about I was like picking people for Dodge ball or something in elementary school. It's I don't want to pick myself first sometimes, it's I like, I want to pick myself last. So you are just like a total handful.

And I really am a total handful. But that's it, right? Byron Katie says, you're going to argue with what is you're going to lose, but only every time, what is true about me is that I think too much, I feel too much. I need too much by any margin of like appropriate society standards.

And I have been that. Since I was born. So being in relationship with myself means really expanding to accommodate everything that I am instead of constantly shaming myself for not fitting this like cookie cutter. This is what's good, and it's hard because I grew up. In a larger body. I, was told in no uncertain terms directly to my face from like elementary school that I should be lucky, right for any attention that people paid to me. We don't pluck these ideas out of nowhere. We are taught that we are not as worthy as somebody else. We are taught to make ourselves small, and we carry that into adulthood, into our relationships. And we have this real fear.

If I start bringing more of my true self to my life, who's going to be there. Are people still going to be around? And what I found is some people aren't and that, the fear of that, the riskiness of that, the worry of what happens when I allow my needs to enter into the situation and ask for what I really want.

And somebody says, no, thank you. And what I suspected was true, but like really hard to hold onto when I was that afraid was that on the other side, there might be more people who were excited and happy for, like being with me and my truest form. But I have so much compassion for how it can feel scary.

And we are really committed to pretending that we don't have needs because we need to belong. And, that need for belonging is so overdeveloped, because if you think about when you're a baby, your need for safety and your need for belonging are so intricately woven together that, you have to do whatever you deem necessary in order to belong to your family of origin, because your actual survival depends on it.

And then as you grow into adulthood, that's in most cases no longer true, but it still feels so true if you will so risky and so dangerous. So we have to be kind to ourselves. And so much of being that benevolent leader to ourselves is really learning how to belong to ourselves first.

And knowing that the relationship that we have with ourselves supersedes the relationships that we have with everyone else, because that's the one that we carry from when we're born, until we die and, through all of the relationships. In our lives and it can feel lonely. It's I remember one time.

Ah why did I have to stuck with myself? Why couldn't I be somebody cool or less difficult, or I don't know, ah everyone has it so much easier or nobody really has it that much easier. We all have stuff. And so basically it's don't pick yourself last, be that person that you're not too much for.

But that's not something you can pay lip service to. That's something that you. That you show to yourself, you prove to yourself every single day through your actions.

Nancy: And so in the podcast episode I was listening to, which was your story you talk to, there are two things you talked about that were that I was like, like I literally stopped and typed into my phone.

Oh, I need to ask more about this. The one that stopped me in my tracks was Self care is inconvenient or not self-care but self-trust means being inconvenient. And I was like, whoa, that is so true. So dead on. And yet God, that's so freaking hard, like that's a piece. I think that where we give lip service to self-trust and we need to pick ourselves first, blah, blah, blah.

But when we're in the trenches, Being inconvenient. And, you give the example of like being the one that says, no, I can't eat that or no, I need to take a break. And, I have chronic arthritis and I think that's why that stuck out to me. Because I'm inconvenient a lot.

And that is so hard for me. So talk, can you talk to that a little bit and just,

Mara: yeah. Having your own back and. Having your own back is an act of rebuilding that self-trust so much of being our true selves is inconvenient because we know on every level that the world would prefer us.

If we were like the cool person, like I always think oh, if I was like, what would a cool girl say? Oh, it's no problem. When really I'm like, it's a big problem. I just want to feel okay., I just want to not care so much about everything or not, it's like I have a lot of foods that I'm allergic to. And it's never easy. It's never just yeah, sure. Bake whatever, no problem. We are so taught to not inconvenience other people that like being good means making ourselves as small and easy as possible.

And anything that's not Yeah, sure. No problem is a problem. And yet we are, we're humans are inherently problematic because, we get tired, we have health limitations. We have. Preferences and needs, there's so many things about us that don't fit into that, that cookie cutter mold. The societal indoctrination and conditioning is heavy.

And, I think in this case, particularly around productivity, you know what we're seeing now, especially as we're recording this during this pandemic that people are. Scared for their lives and they're still shaming themselves for not being productive, so we just were able to see or risking their lives to go back to work because they need the money.

We see how productivity is king and anything that, that any human part of us automatically makes us less productive because we're not machines, we're not robots, we're humans. And that means we get tired. We, have to get up and go to the bathroom. We have get hungry, like we, we require things in order to keep going.

And in a world that would prefer us to push all that to the wayside in order to just keep showing up in this like excellent kind of way. It's problematic. And whenever we really prioritize those parts of ourselves, that's a revolutionary act. And I think, building up that paradigm shift of it's okay for me to be a human it's. Okay. For me to have needs and preferences and requirements for, continuation the more people that we can have around us that feel the same way. It's like this podcast is amazing, right? This is a great resource. But surrounding yourself, quite literally with voices that reaffirm your worthiness as a human being.

Nancy: Because I like how you say, because it's needs and preferences. It isn't, I know that I, have some stomach issues and I would been in my twenties, I would go and eat out with people that were making meals. I wouldn't tell them what would make me sick. I would just get sick, I would eat it later and then get sick because I didn't want to stand out as having a need.

And that's something that now I would, that is a. It's a medical problem. I'm going to be, I'm going to be more strict about it, but even just preferring not to have pizza, just because it's a preference. Not because anything's going to happen to me. I think that's where, we don't even do that.

If I have a medical condition, then it's okay to say I have a preference, but if I just prefer it because I like pizza or I don't like pizza, it's a whole big thing and our brains, but it's the same thing, but it's justifying

Mara: Yeah. It's so funny. My clients are always like, wait, but is it a need or is it a desire?

Yeah. I see what you're doing here. I see. It's okay, now we've decided that needs are okay, but only needs not a step further are important. And the reality is, it's like somebody is cooking you dinner. They that's an act of love for you, right? Hey, random person let me do this loving thing for you.

It's they want to make you something. They don't want to make you something that makes you sick, they don't want to make you something that you don't like, or we'll see. It's oh, we're going out somewhere. Where do you want to go? I don't know. Where do you want to go? How about Tai in my head?

I'm like, not tai, not do I say not tai? No. And so I think, yeah. It's really important. If we're going to build genuine relationships with other people that we allow our needs and preferences into the conversation, the same way that we would want to know somebody else's needs and preferences, I think about how much allowance and permission, for all of the people in my life to be spectacularly human. And I'm like what do you need? I want to make this extra special, good feeling for you, but why wouldn't I let somebody give that to me in return? Why wouldn't I trust that maybe somebody who, says they want to do that actually means it.

And all of that goes back to believing that we're worthy of that kind of care. And we can't outsource.It's never going to be enough. We could see, receive so much evidence, so much permission, so much, affirmation, which like, we're not going to receive that much anyway, because as much as we need, because like it's not anybody else's full-time job to make us feel good about ourselves, much as I wish it were, so it's it's no, it's never going to be enough. And we have to be the sovereign leaders of our lives and really. Do that internal work to see oh wow, this person's making me dinner. I'm going to assume that it's not because they feel like arm twisted into it. It's because they actually want to.

And so I'm also going to assume that it's safe to say I can't eat dairy. If the shoe were on the other foot, I wouldn't, want to honor that preference for somebody else. Absolutely.

Nancy: Yeah. Because even as you said, please don't make it Tai. My brain was like, oh, but you should try new things and you should be open to, like it was almost immediate.

Mara: We have to be very vigilant. I don’t want to say vigilant because I don't want anybody to be stressed out, but we have to be aware that we're, our social conditioning is such that we're really tricky. This is a very nuanced, the immediacy of how we censor ourselves is really profound.

So starting to walk that back, Oh, wow. And we don't have to beat ourselves up for it. It's oh, wow. See what I just did there. I told myself pretty immediately that what I wanted and needed was impossible here. Is that actually true? It doesn't feel risky. Is there something I could ask for, because we don't have to splay ourselves open at every point.

We can push our edges a little bit and say, how about not Tai today?

Nancy: Yeah, it just is. It's funny how it comes so quick, so then this is a question on your podcast. You talked about self-trust you said self-trust can sometimes disguise itself as following rules. So for those of us that are rule followers, we think we're engaging in self-trust, but we're not.

So I know I'm springing this question on you, but what does that mean? Because I'm a big rule follower and I know a lot of that's something I work on daily is the rules loosening that.

Mara: So it's I like to think about this as, whose rules are we following? I'm a big rule follower too.

And I will say that I am being impeccable with my word is something that is really important to me. Follow through is really important to me. And once I say I'm going to do something, it's put it on my tombstone. I will be there at the appointed time. No matter what, because I just that's how my brain operates and I like steps and I like, clear like paths from here to there.

But what is interesting is how. Unless I'm paying attention. My life is filled up with rules written by somebody else and for somebody else. And, I noticed this in a big way maybe in 2012 because I, I had my whole life was set up and it looked really good. And I had followed a path that I accumulated at some point from the what was good manual. And I hadn't, I never stopped and say is this what I do? Is this what I think is right? Is this what I think is good? And so I think that there's a piece of self-trust that has to do with being in relationship with ourselves and being in a state of inquiry and, following through with what we say that we're going to do but making sure that what we say we're going to do is something that.

Actually works for us. That's in alignment with our own values system. That's in integrity for us. And that's the piece that I was, had been skipping over. I had just been like, oh it says this is good, or right. I was. Constantly polling for opinions from other people and, pulling experts in for somebody better, smarter than me who would know what to do.

And when I was able to realize like there, by and large, almost across the board, there is no universally right or wrong answer. There's just the answer that works for you and make sense to you. And that we're doing the best that we can with the tools that. In the minute, which means looking back on ourselves is always going to disappoint, embarrass us in some ways, because we're always getting better.

So you know that there was no thing I could do that would be like capital G good. That everybody would agree on. And that was a profound disappointment for me because I was vested in being good. And I was really invested in knowing what that was, and so there was a lot of grief associated with giving that up because I don't want to just be right.

I don't want to pick myself for Dodge ball. I don't want to just be me out in the middle of nowhere. I feel so small. I feel so insignificant. I feel like I don't possibly have the tools to make any kind of decision, but, it's really interesting. And there are so many opportunities to rebuild our self-trust in this way, I'm thinking.

During this time, before my governor I live in Massachusetts, before my governor pulled my kids out of school and, shut everything down, like we had already shut down. And that was because in my family, because I was tired of spending my whole day scrolling through finding opinions, trying to figure it out, all these things, feeling scared, wanting somebody to tell me what to do.

And I made the decision like, oh, wow. Okay. I actually have self-trust and I have agency and I can make decisions on my own behalf. And, my partner and I work for ourselves. So we were able to do this, but like we just, we pulled our kids out of school. We were like, we just need to stop and make the decision that we were going to stay here for the next two weeks and see what happens.

And I think we have so many opportunities. Obviously we live in societies. There are certain rules that guide those societies, but there's a lot of room, maneuverability for choice and preference within that. We just have to feel strong enough to do that for ourselves and strong enough. Does it mean, like I still feel small and insignificant and like spectacularly unprepared to make decisions on my own, but that's not, I don't assume that's ever going to change.

And that doesn't mean that I can't trust myself. That's just me. Yeah. It's scary. Who are you to think? I need to be, I feel like that about being a parent across the board. It's am I adult enough to be in charge of these people… I don't think so. I can barely take care of myself but here we are doing the best we can with what we have.

Nancy: Yeah, because I noticed on the opposite when our governor announced he was going to open up. My anxiety went through the roof. Because I was like, oh my, no. Oh my God, we're going to open up. Oh my God. I don't feel, I don't think this is right. And then. You can do what you want to do. Like you don't have to rejoin.

And that was new for me to just switch that. Because that's something on a daily basis, like I'll have a rule about, the right thing to eat for breakfast or the rule for, the right time to eat lunch. Like everything in my life is a rule or a competition. It's all about, doing it.

Is something that I actively work on readjusting. Okay. So then the other question I have is your blog. And I realize it's an old one. But it's still tops on your blog page. And it's one of those blogs that I wish I had written myself: Is Accepting Myself Avoiding Self-Improvement. is the title of it. And I have so many people, a lot of my listeners, they're here because they love self-improvement. And that mix of I can't accept myself because there's still so much, I want to improve on talk to me about that.

Mara: Yeah. That goes back to these weird ideas about self love that we have.

It's if I accept myself as I am, that I'm somehow just like putting a cap on any future growth and I don't want to stagnate. So I better, like be, always fixing, always improving and self-acceptance really says that there may be a lot of things that you want and need to take care of in your life, but that there's nothing wrong with you.

And that there's nothing to fix about you. And, it goes back to some of what I said about that Byron Katie quote about, If you want to argue with what is you're going to lose, but only every time. And I am that too much person that like total handful person that I was when I was three years old.

And when I was 11 years old and when I was 20 years old and now currently I am never going to out life hack or grow myself. I've done tons of work on myself over my lifetime. But I'm never going to not be myself. And so I think that the self-acceptance piece is really about honoring and working with your original factory settings.

Like I have things that are always going to trigger me. I have things that are always going to be harder for me than other things. I have things on the other side that I'm great at. Like these are the things that are true about me and those things may change like on a spectrum, like we're all moving all the time.

Like my capacity is impacted by my care of myself. It's not like things are static. But I'm never going to not be me. And so for me, that self-acceptance is really about honoring who I am and working from that place. It's like thinking, no matter how much I work out, like my legs are never going to be longer than they are.

I have short legs that is true about me. And I could like work to change the shape of my legs, but they're never going to. Longer. They're always going to be short legs. And what am I going to spend my whole life pissed that I have these short legs, and that's what it is for me.

It's we're going to spend our whole lives at odds with our factory settings. One could do that if one wanted to, but it's a miserable way to live because you're always at odds with yourself. And so instead, it might be thinking about like, all right this is, this is the body that I have.

This is the life that I have. This is, these are what I'm working with. And daily tending is more about supporting ourselves. If I know that something is challenging for me, then I have to think about how to make it work for me. So I've been writing a book for an embarrassing long time, and I write.

Like thousands and thousands of words a week, four tons. For coaching programs, for emails for all, I'm writing constantly. Writing a book is really hard for me, pushes a lot of buttons. I have this opportunity to either beat myself up or be in a place of self-acceptance like, Hey, this is hard for you.

So if this is something you actually want to do, you need to find a way to make it work for you. Self-acceptance, isn't this cap on your growth, but it's this acknowledgement that you are, who you are. And if you want what you want, it's got to go through you. Instead of pushing you to the side and being like here's the rules.

This is like the five-step plan. And you say okay, it turns out what I need to write my book is for my little sister to literally sit next to me for several hours a week and holds me accountable to myself. Pour me hot chocolate and like telling me I'm such a good writer. That's what it is, will the book get written?

Yes, there's we don't have to, it goes back to being so strict with ourselves. Like we don't have to do things in this, nobody says like you have to write a book by yourself in a room and it's like very Spartan way with no music, just you and your muse.

Like self-acceptance implores us to work with what we have to get to where we want to go. And not only from my perspective, not only does that put a cap on our self-improvement or, our growth, but it superpowers it. And it's just so funny to me although people say it to me all the time, too, I don't want to accept myself because then I'll just relax into it.

Yes. What a way to be in relationship with yourself. You want to be able to relax into your relationship with yourself. That goes to show you're having all your relationships like that. I don't want to relax into it because something bad might happen. That person might divorce me, die, walk out the door, you're not going to have any of those problems in your relationship with yourself. You're really stuck with yourself. What is that, that deep seated message of unworthiness there that we don't deserve to be loved and cared for and taken care of the way that we are. We always have to be striving to, to deserve that.

And I get why people feel that way. But it's a brutal way to run your life, a benevolent leader would not do that would not believe that.

And it's a process, right? Working to walk that one back and you can start by, by even saying it's okay, there's, let's just say, there's no rules about breakfast just for today. What would I want to eat? Do I want you to Turkey sandwich? Do I want to run some of those? Those choices off of autopilot and really asking yourself, what would I like to eat right now at this meal that we call breakfast, which is, we have an idea in our head of what that should look like, but that's totally arbitrary.

Nancy: Yeah. That, yeah. And that again, goes to the depth of self care and self trust. That is where everything starts from that. If then I can make decisions because my first tendency is to be, oh, I want to write a book. Let me go look outside for all the rules on how to write a book instead of how would writing a book, how do I want to write a book?

What does that look like for me? I immediately go to look for it.

Mara: Yeah. Oh, me too. The other day I was talking to my sister about it because I was writing and I was like, all of a sudden I was like, this needs like a theoretical underpinning and I felt totally intimidated. But then in the middle of the night I remembered I have my master's in social work.

Like I know how to have a theoretical underpinnings. And then she was like cracking up. She was like, yeah. I be like, yeah, you do have the ability. All right. That you already know the theories that you're already working from and your work. And then I came all the way around to it again, and I was like, yeah.

And I can include that, but also I don't have to base my work on somebody else's work. I can just do my own work. She was happy to be on this process with me. But now it's really like that whole art yeah. Giving ourselves that permission and it, it is so funny. Because there are rules. Look, if you want to look outside of yourself, there's always going to be somebody who's going to tell you.

There's always going to be somebody lined up that you can pay to tell you. And I think that getting support is excellent. But we need to run everything through our own filtration system too, it's okay. Mara said that. Is that true for me? Maybe not. Does that work for me?

Maybe not. Maybe I really need to have eat the same thing for breakfast every single day, because that's what helps me, my decision-making process. Doesn't zap me of my decision-making abilities for the rest of the day. It's like I eat berries and cereal for breakfast and that's it.

I don't want to have to think about it. Great. If that's what works for you. That's what works for you? I think that's the piece. It's like these things work in relationship with each other when we are not islands. And also we are the sovereign leaders of our lives, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation.

It was so amazing. Where can people find you? And what do you have in the works? If anything,

Mara: you can find me at https://www.maraglatzel.com/. You can hang out with me on Instagram. My handle is Mara Glatzel. I have a. Free five-day self-care class called Revive, which you can sign up for on my site, which is pretty fun.

I'll read the prompts to you every day for five days and yeah, just, I'd love to hear from you if you're listening to this and this resonated with you, reach out and yeah. Come hang out with me

Nancy: .Her Instagram is fabulous. She definitely walks the talk, and shows it on display on Instagram, which is really inspiring.

Mara: Thank you so much for having me. I really had so much fun here.

Nancy: Mara gave me so much to think about, especially the idea that self-trust is inconvenient. That is something we don't talk about enough. As we prioritize ourselves, as we build self loyalty, it can build more anxiety. It's important to know and give ourselves some grace around that.

When we start honoring our needs, we can get pushback that causes anxiety. If we aren't careful, we will see that anxiety as a negative thing and start engaging in old familiar patterns, meaning prioritizing everyone else in order to decrease the anxiety. But when we know, oh, that practicing self loyalty initially will increase anxiety.

We can notice that and say, oh my gosh, wow, this is uncomfortable. I'm feeling stressed and anxious. And I'm just going to sit here for as long as I can and notice. Practicing self loyalty is hard, but the more we care for ourselves, the less suffering we have.

---

If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

---

Episode 136: Learning the Practice of Joy

In today’s episode, I am talking with Danielle Brooker, life coach, and podcast host at The Daisy Patch, about the differences between joy, happiness, and positive thinking.

“You should be grateful,” they say. 

“It isn’t that bad. I’m just whining,” you tell yourself. 

“I shouldn’t be so negative. I have so much to be positive about in my life.” 

Man, oh, man! We really beat ourselves up for not being able to stick with positive thoughts all the time. The minute we start to feel negativity—like fear, anger, or doubt—we’re trained to step in with positivity. 

Yet anger, sadness, and doubt have things to teach us. If we skip right over these “negative emotions,” we never get to experience life on a deeper level. 

Today, I’m thrilled to talk with Danielle Brooker who helps busy, always-on women ditch stress and reclaim their joy. She owns The Daisy Patch, where she offers private coaching and group masterminds as well as digital courses. She also hosts the podcast, Let It Shine, and is a Forbes Magazine author. 

In this episode, Danielle and I totally geek out about the differences between joy, happiness, and positive thinking. There is so much good stuff here and I can’t wait for you to hear it. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What the difference is between joy and happiness

• How joy and positive thinking work together yet how they are completely different

• How you can be uncertain and feel really bad and at the same time experience joy

• Why she refers to her online home as The Daisy Patch

Resources mentioned:

• The Make Light Show

• The Opt-In

• Speaking of Racism

• The Daisy Patch Website

• Instagram: thedaisypatchcoaching

• LinkedIn: Danielle Brooker

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Before we get into this week's episode, I want to take a few minutes to chat about the recent events with the murder of George Floyd, by the police officer, Derek Chauvin and the resulting peaceful protests and riots. Yesterday as my husband and I were watching the news and seeing the variety of images from police and protestors, walking together in peace to looters running out of broken store windows.

I said, how is this going to stop? I have watched the videos and listened to the news and heard the guttural pain of the black voices. You have protested and screamed at the top of your lungs to be heard and still black men, black women and black children are senselessly murdered. I want to acknowledge your pain and thank you for finding the energy to continue to speak march and demand change. As a white woman, it is easy to fall into overwhelm to watch what is happening on TV and social media.

And think the problem is too big. What can I do? How can I make a difference? And then my Monger steps in to shame and ridicule me for not knowing the right way among many other things. And I become paralyzed. To be honest, I've lived in that paralysis for too long. I have stayed silent for fear of doing it wrong.

If you are a white person and have also heard the pain of the black voices and are tired of living in paralysis, I want to offer you three actionable steps. Number one, read, listen, educate yourself. I recommend you find podcasts, books or other resources written by black people. Three podcasts. I would recommend.

Number one, Make Light number two, The Opt-In Podcast. And number three, Speaking Of Racism, we will link to those in the show notes. The second actionable step. Notice your BFF. Our BFF is always going to protect us from feeling shame, whether from our mongers or from the outside world. I have seen my BFF a lot this week.

I see a post on social media that makes me feel shame. And my BFF comes out to say who does she think she is? Or I have pain too. When I hear my BFF talking, I ask myself, wow, what is that about? Is there something I need to own here seeing privilege? Hard. It makes us feel uncomfortable and we need to get uncomfortable.

We need to see how we are part of a system that perpetuates pain and claims innocent black lives. You know how I always talk about the power of, AND here you go. You are a kind loving person. And you have biases against black color. You have them because they're everywhere in our culture, in our families, in our media, we swallow them every day and we have to start owning them, getting uncomfortable and making corrections. The third actionable step. Talk about it. Find spaces to have honest conversations about these topics. I reached out to a friend of mine this week and we have agreed to create a shame free space where we can challenge each other and say things we feel stupid saying most importantly, create those spaces with other white people do not seek safe spaces or require emotional labor from black people, especially right now.

We need ongoing systemic change. This is not a let's look at the issue of race and privilege hard this week. And then next week, go back to life. As normal situation let's commit to on going systemic change, I will do it wrong. You will do it wrong. We are human. We do things wrong. Remember there is no right way, but here is my new motto.

When you make a mistake, listen, learn. Make corrections.

Danielle: Like you don't stay in a state of happiness all the time. I think that's probably somewhat impossible. Whereas for me, joy is more of a source. It's more like tapping into something deep and inner. That makes me feel like me.

Nancy: You should be grateful

It isn't that bad.

I'm just whining.

I shouldn't be so negative.

I have so much to be positive about it.

Man. Oh man, we really did beat ourselves up for not being able to stick with positive thoughts all the time. The minute we start to feel negativity, fear, anger, doubt sadness. We're trained to step in with positivity.

Positive thinking is something that has been hardwired into us. It's a cultural norm. We don't have the patience for negativity because we've been trained. That negativity is heavy. It's less efficient positivity is light, airy and fun. So it's easier to be around. The negativity, feeling bad. Ignore it. Just look at all the things you should be feeling positive about.

Your listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Positivity and the relentless hunt for it is something that keeps us stuck. It prevents us from getting into the depth of life. It prevents us from making changes, anger, sadness, doubt. They have things to teach us places. We might need to make a change or experience something on a deeper level. If we skip the quote negative emotions, we never get to experience life on a deeper level.

All this month, I'm talking about things that keep you stuck. I'll be interviewing Mara Glatzer about self-care and how those of us with high functioning anxiety struggle with engaging in self-care. And our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in over functioning. Jen Louden will be here to share her new book called Why Bother?, which is what to do when you feel stuck in your life.

And I'll be talking about the high functioning anxiety mantra. I got this, which keeps us stuck in overdrive. Today, I'm thrilled to bring on an expert on joy to talk about positive thinking. Danielle Brooker is a coach who works with busy, always on women to ditch their stress and reclaim their joy. This might be my favorite part of her bio.

I'm also the first to tell you that feeling bad is just as good for you as feeling good. It's just that we've lost touch with feeling good. We spend too much time focused on our stress, our busy-ness and our. Joy gets limited air time in our lives. So when we come to want it, we don't know how to experience it.

Danielle has been an author for Forbes magazine, which is where we met. She interviewed me for an article. She got started in coaching after a decade in government policy, economics and health charity roles. She's from South Africa and has lived in Australia, Japan, and now London, Danielle, and I totally geek out about the difference between joy, happiness, and positive thinking.

There's so much good stuff here. I can't wait for you to hear. Danielle. And I talk about the difference between joy and happiness, how joy and positive thinking work together and how they are completely different, how I can be uncertain and feeling really bad. And at the same time experienced joy and why she refers to her online home as the Daisy patch.

Okay. I'm so excited today to have Danielle Brooker here with me, we are going to be talking about joy, all things, joy. She's a joy coach. And also positive thinking. This month, we're talking about things that keep us stuck. And so I'm interested to hear. Danielle has to say about that topic.

Welcome, Danielle

Danielle: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here and to be having this conversation with you.

Nancy: I know you talk, obviously being a joy coach, you talk a lot about joy. So what is joy to you and what is the difference between joy and happiness?

Danielle: Oh, good question. So we're just diving straight in

Nancy: jumping in girlfriend.

Danielle: It's actually a really good question. And I'll probably start with that distinction between joy and happiness, because I feel like it's almost like the first thing you go to, like you hear joy and you think isn't it just being happy and to me it's really distinctly different. I really think of joy for me personally, is.

More of this deep source. It's more of this deep, almost fuel source that I tap into. It's when I'm feeling personally my most grounded and calm and like crystal clear in my thinking and feeling, and, it's almost like. Source of immense gratitude, immense love. It's not necessarily for me, like skipping down the street with glee, all the time.

Although, sometimes sure. I have been known to skip down the street, but that's certainly not what joy is to me all the time. Whereas when I think about happiness, I think like happiness is more like. It's more like a state of experience like it. And in some ways it can almost be driven by external things.

I am happy in a conversation with my friends. I am, happy about reading a book or like happy being on holiday. It's a short-lived experience almost like you don't stay in a state of habit. All the time. I think that's probably somewhat impossible. Whereas for me, joy is more of a source.

It's more like tapping into something deep and inner that makes me feel like me.

Nancy: Oh, that makes you feel like you. I like that. Okay. So like in my work, it would be like the biggest fan type spots. So that could be one that, okay. That's cool. I hadn't thought about it like that. Because I think of joy as like skipping down the street and you're saying that can be, yeah, but even if you're in the midst of grief or like right now in the midst of, during COVID-19 in the midst of high anxiety and uncertainty, I can still tap into my joy. Yes. And what would that look like?

Danielle: This is really interesting, because I know you had commented on a blog post. I wrote recently.

Which is touching on this point is like, how can I be uncertain and feeling really bad and at the same time experience joy, like how can I, and for me, first of all, I think about, yes joy is on the spectrum of emotions that we can feel. And, in a time of uncertainty, life, at the time of recording now, there's a lot of uncertainty going on in the world.

But there's also uncertainty just every day, you think about like small changes that we make in our life or, bigger changes. Should I shouldn't I quit my job, the uncertainty that that, those sorts of questions throw up for us when there's a lot of uncertainty.

What we tend to do is we want to. Get back in control. Like we want to clean tight. There's oh, like I don't want to feel stressed. I don't want to feel confused about this. I don't want to feel uncomfortable. And when we clean onto that I talk about this in the context of like, why we busy ourselves as well.

But when we clean and this is come me, but I'm tensing my body right now, but it's like this tightness and it's almost like this numbing that we do. Yeah. What I say is like, when we're doing that, we're not even experienced, like we're doing it because we don't experience the pain, but we're also when we're not experiencing the pain, the discomfort, the stress, the busy-ness.

We're also not experiencing the other side of the emotional spectrum, which is things like calmness state of groundedness pleasure, joy love. And when I, so when I talk about if you are, how can I in this moment of uncertainty also experienced joy for me, I guess it's remembering that all the feelings are OK

If that's the simplest possible way that I can put it, it's acknowledging that anything that's coming up is natural and I choose to hold tight and worry about it, or try and fix it or try and control it. Then what I'm actually doing is holding myself back from all of the other emotions.

And the emotions give us our experience of life.

I'm like, don't get me wrong. Like somewhat some emotions for me. I just really not always that welcomed. You're like, please go away. I don't want you right now, but the more that I can remind myself, like in that moment, Hey, this is an emotion like this is not this is not a forever thing. This is an experience, this is to help me experience whatever's going on right now, quicker.

I can move through it as well. Like the more uncomfortable ones. I'm trying to think of like a practical example. All right. So this is what the blog post was about the other day. This is just a silly, small, practical example, but it helps. Yeah. Bring it to life is I was literally sitting on the couch.

We're on stay at home, stay safe policies at the moment. Sorry. There's a lot of at home. I'm in a small place with my Partner working from home. And I'm sitting on the couch and it's Spring and there's this beautiful sunshine streaming through. I'm sitting doing a little bit of work and reading and I'm a sunshine person.

I'm just laughing it up, going, oh, Amazing. And then I start to smell something really gross. It was like the sewage smell coming through and I'm like, oh, yuck. So in that moment, my body tensed up, I was like, I was getting frustrated. I almost wanted to be like, what's going on? Where's that coming from?

Can we get rid of that? Can we fix that? Please close the door. What's going on? What was my instant reaction? And. It just took me a moment to be like notice that tension. And then I was also in that tension. Because I, play around with this in my life. I'm like hang on a second.

The suns really nice too. Do I need to hold tight to this grossness? Or could I just be, could I just breathe through it? Like literally breathe through the yucky smell. And when I did, I realized that yes, it was gross. Then it got a little bit less gross than it got a little bit less gross. And before I knew it, I was back into that kind of Oh, the suns really nice. And isn't this beautiful on my couch is really comfy. Does that does that kind of make sense? It's holding at the same time.

Nancy: Yeah, I think that's an awesome example. Because you also went on, I think to be like, how dare they lay the mulch on, today when I had my window open in a Sunday like then we can get in.

Yeah, we can get into righteous indignation and blah, blah, blah. And it just spins us so much. Sorry. Because I had an interesting this morning, I was I told you before we got on the today has been like a tough day, like started rough. And so I go into what's going on? How can I fix this? How can I get into a better mood?

Where's my monger talking and what can I do to get out of this? And I was walking the dog and I was like, you should be enjoying this, look around it's sunny and blah, blah, blah. And then finally some little voice inside of you, right? Sharing this to be like, I think this is what you're saying.

Some little voice inside of me said, what if you're in a bad mood? Yes. And I was like, yeah. And then everything softened, like as soon as I said what if you're just in a bad mood? It was. And then the next phrase in my came into my head was its so hard to be in a bad mood. Yeah. And that was just such a foreign thought to me to give myself kindness around that instead of trying to push myself out of it all the time.

Danielle: Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I really feel particularly as high achievers, as high functioning, what we want to do when we feel discomfort or stress, or there's a problem at work, or we don't have the answer to something. Yes. I think that's almost like our learned strategy in that moment is oh my God, I'm grumpy.

Oh my God. I'm not supposed to be grumpy. I teach everybody how to feel joy.

quick, get out of it. So I like, and I love your experience there of like when that other voice is hang on a sec, maybe this is just a grumpy mood. Like you're entitled to feel grumpy. What happens even in the acknowledging. Of the feeling. There's a soft thing. And I know it because you have this three-step process on ask, ask.

Yeah.

Nancy: Knowledge is the feelings is the first step. Yeah.

Danielle: Which is so powerful. And sometimes this stuff can sound sorry. I dunno, like esoteric, but like literally genuinely that is my experience sitting on the couch going well, hang on a sec. What if I did. Don't get grumpy about the awful or what if I just acknowledged that, Ooh, this is a bit gross, like what could happen next?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I think that it's, we're constantly trying to push ourselves out of it and instead of accepting that it's there and how do I move forward with that? Because I think that is, to go back. You said something that I think is really powerful is the idea that all things.

All things are uncertain. You mean like it's really uncertain now and that's in our face of how uncertain it is and granted, I, it's but when you think about it on a bigger picture, we never know, we don't know what's going to happen in September ever. Yeah. We definitely don't know now, but we certainly, we make plans as if we know, but we don't know.

And I think that's an interesting kind of wrapping your head around that. There's some freedom there.

Danielle: Oh yeah. That's so true. It's so weird. Isn't it? Because if you can just, if I have this expression, like I think we're all control freaks at our core. And I think part of that is going okay. Cool. Acknowledging that I'm constantly seeking this balance between control and certainty in my life. But also if I took away all of the uncertainty, you'd be so bored. Yes. If there was no variety, it'd be like, as much as you're craving that. So it's this weird dynamic that plays out between them both.

And I think it's not so much, it's not so much about not getting control. It's about being really aware or about how you're going about it. Is what you were saying there with that kind of freedom piece or the, how you're going about it. If you're trying to be like, Nope, stop that, push that away.

I don't want to feel grumpy anymore. Let's go and fix it. It's a really short lived feeling of control because in that split second of, no, we don't need that right now. You feel like, yes, I'm digging when I've got this, I've got, and then five seconds later, it's oh my God, I'm grumpy again, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, but that's the fascinating part is that it feels like when I said to myself, What, if you're just having a bad mood? There was a part of me that was like, oh no, we can't accept this because then we've lost control completely. Then you're just to the whims of your mood.

Yeah. Which is not true.

Danielle: Yeah. And it's interesting. Because I imagine like when you start with that, which is what happened when I was sitting on the sunny couch, when I sat with it for long enough, actually. I did get back to my control and I got it back in a much more, I say like sustainable or resourceful way.

Like I could keep running that strategy and it would work really well. But I think one of the things that has helped me so much with this is knowing that physically in our body emotions only lasts for 90 seconds. And I remember where I first learned that, but when I launched, I was like 90 seconds.

That's not long. I can handle 90 seconds. I think that's just a really cool thing to know so that when you are in that pain and discomfort, and you're trying out this new strategy, and maybe you do get the little voice going, hang on, maybe it's okay to be grumpy. Like maybe you get to that level of awareness.

Maybe the next step is going okay. What if I could give myself permission to feel grumpy, knowing very well. As long as you're bringing that awareness to it, like it, that feeling that discomfort, that grumpiness that you don't want could only last 90 seconds. Could you do it for 90?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like we're constantly when we're like, oh, like the. We're either demonizing the people who are spreading the mulch and making the poopy smell, or were demonizing ourselves for being in a crappy mood. Instead of that's what I felt like this morning and you on the couch, like I saddled up next to myself and was like, what if we support ourselves through this instead of pushing, berating ourselves for having this feeling and.

And, sometimes it does feel, like I could do the righteous indignation, like anyone's business, and sometimes that feels like you're getting control because it's their fault. But in reality, it's not. Yeah. You've just compiled everything by blaming them and slamming the door shut and now the sun has gone.

You’re mad at them too what end?

Danielle: And now I'm trying to pump out work from this really cranky mood and, and I think, so the thing with control as well, which you've just touched on is part of what I'm saying, like about switching it to a sustainable resourceful strategy. Not even part of it, all of it has to do with coming back to you because I think we can try and seek control and others. It's their fault. That's where the indignance comes from. Like they need to fix this. They need to stop with the mulch, but if we're going to try and control what other people are doing in our lives, we're just going to be grumpy all the time.

It just doesn't work. Just think of the last time that you tried to judge, is my boss in a good mood or not today should I shouldn't I ask them like, or like I've done this with my partner before going, oh, he seems in a bad mood. Maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just cheer him up.

I'm like just let it go. Let him but when it comes from you and you choose how to feel about that person's mood, or you choose how to feel about it. The mulch and the smells and being grumpy, like instead of that kind of fix it mentality, actually you do get back, like you get to drive, so you're back in control, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because that mind reading, that's the thing. That's another boat, but that is where, I know that's something. A lot of high functioning people pride themselves on is being able to read, predict what's what people need. And sometimes we nail that but sometimes we don't, and it's just a lot of extra work.

Danielle: Yeah. A lot of extra work, a lot of extra time and energy that could be spent on actually feeling good.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So let's go back and tell me about how you got into this. How did you become a joy coach? What was your path?

Danielle: Okay. My path is so zig zaggy and I don't want to give you the four hour version. So a couple of like milestones or like realizations for me were things like. One, I've always been like a positive sunny person. Like I've always just seen the good in people, in things and experiences. At some point along the way, I started to hide that a little bit or soften it or not let it shine too much.

Because I was worried about standing out or what would people think if they're in a bad mood and I'm in a good mood, what's going on, by the way, none of this was conscious. This is like from like connecting the dots, looking backwards. So there was that element of it. I was also I'm someone who always did the right thing.

Studied really hard, wanted to get the good job, did get an amazing job. Had this wonderful career, got promoted very quickly. I actually love my job. And from the outside, looking in everything was great. Good job, amazing mentors, wonderful friends and family, good relationship, I could go on and on, but I was coming home, exhausted, stressed out and crying every night.

Like no idea why. I thought I had to fix it by enrolling in a master's degree. Part-time and that's great. This is something I've always been passionate about. Maybe I need to fix it by, I dunno, like hanging out with my friends, more, taking more breaks, going to yoga classes. There were all the things that I was trying to do to cut a long story short.

There was this absolute burnout from all of that. And part of the burnout

Nancy: Burnout from the fixing or a burnout from the crisis or a combination.

Danielle: That's a good question. I guess a combination like by burnout I literally took time off from work, like to a point where I had to stop, like my body, like my heart, my emotions, everything was like, you just have to stop.

Okay. Which was still looking back, one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life tell a busy, always on highly ambitious person to stop and you're taking away their lifeline.

Nancy: What were some the signs that you needed to do, that?

Danielle: That I needed to stop?

Nancy: Yes,

Danielle: Coming home crying every night.

I'm like, what's wrong. I had a lot of digestive issues that I thought were like, related to what I was eating. So I was trying to fix what I was eating. I was getting migraines. I kept going back to the doctor saying, give me something stronger, nothing would work. And I was saying to her I don't understand nothing's working.

And she was like, maybe just breast. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. And, but there were a couple of other things like. One and to be honest, like it was all around the same time, mushed into one. Another thing was my boss was retiring and he asked me, Hey, why don't you apply for my job?

And I laughed it off. I was like, oh, you're so funny. That would never be me, blah, blah, blah. And I thought that kind of planted a seed of why isn't that the natural next progression? Why you're not even considering it. I also had this somewhat profound kind of experience where I randomly was at work very busy, stressed on a weekend, finishing up a master's degree and got distracted and ended up booking myself on a overseas volunteering program in Kenya.

Oh, my something I had always dreamt of doing, but for some reason I got distracted from the, what I should do. And in that moment was like, oh, let me Google that thing that makes me come alive. Let me Google. It feels really good. And that was another seed. So there were the seeds of going into, hang on, maybe you need to do things differently.

Maybe you need to be asking different questions. Maybe this is not for you. And after that Kenya experience, which was. Yes, time away from work. But I had approached it from a very career oriented that I'm going to do this thing, and it's going to look good on my CV. And so I got back from that and I, they, as part of the program, send you away on this personal empowerment development weekend.

And I love give me any course training workshops. Self-help thing. That was me. I was always like, yes, please give me more learning. But on this weekend I got to actually experience coaching firsthand and these beautiful, incredible coaches were leading the weekend. I got to have a conversation with them, like six of them one-on-one for half an hour.

And I, once again, thought, no, something's not working at work. I'm really stressed. Maybe I need a career change. So that was what the theme of every conversation was. What do I do to progress? What do I do to get to them? Or what do I do to get better? Because you know, I'm not filled up yet. And in one of the conversations, I know this is a really long story.

Nancy: No, you're, it's great. I'm. Keep going,

Danielle: but what, it was really profound for me. So one of the conversations I opened my mouth and I just started balling. She was a coach and a psychologist. And I think something in me was like, she must have the answers or like this. I can trust her or It just opened me up where I lost the whole career conversation.

And to be honest, you probably only asked me one or two questions, but it changed the direction because one of the questions she just asked is what is it you most need right now? And my answer was, I need two weeks off work to do nothing. That was all I needed. And even in saying the answer, the relief in my body, like I just, I was petrified.

I was scared. I was nervous and I was relieved. So all of that was just this combination of art adults. What you have to do, you actually have to completely take time off. Like you cannot come up with new answers. You cannot know what your next step is. You cannot course correct digestion and migraines and all of the stuff.

If you don't stop first, if you don't give yourself space first. So that was my starting point and two weeks very quickly turned into six weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy: And in that time, in the six weeks, what did you do? Just literally relaxed.

Danielle: Yeah, like I was so fortunate. And I'm forever grateful this particular GP.

And I had seen various GPS over the years about all the digestion and headaches and blah, blah, blah. This particular one was quite new to me. In fact, I don't think I'd seen her at all before. I think I purposely booked like a brand new GP when I got back from that weekend with where the combination was go take two weeks off.

And once again, I open my mouth and I said, ah it was tears and she's what did I write you off for two weeks? Stress leave. I think that's what you need. Oh, wow. That's awesome. But she actually said to me, she's what you need to do is go and do nothing. And she's yes, nothing means sit on the couch.

Yes. Nothing means watch all the movies read all the books. And she said, nothing also means. Go for a walk every day also means get out of the house. It was such an important distinction because the high achiever that I am, I'm on stress leave. I'm not allowed to leave my house. I have to not stress. I have to relax.

I was like, oh my God, I have to do the right thing. Yeah. If someone sold me out, but she, in some weird way, she gave me permission to actually just do whatever the hell I wanted.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And was that hard?

Danielle: Oh yes. Like it was so hard because I'm, I was a highly sociable person used to thriving in a work environment, doing all the things suddenly I was at home, everyone else was at work.

Talk to during the day when everyone's busy at work, there's nothing to do. I had this vision of reading all the books and then I'd sit there and be like, I don't know what book to read. I'm uncomfortable. I don't want to sit still, I got bored of the TV, it was really uncomfortable to begin with

Nancy: I asked that because I know so many of my clients will say, oh, I just that would be their dream.

For their doctor to give them, but then when it happens, it's super stressful. It's not the dream that you think it's going to be, which is why I was pushing it.

Danielle: In my head I was like, oh my God. Yes. She gave it to me—2 weeks off! I celebrate it. I'm like, oh my God. I had to call work and tell them and oh my God, like when you talk about like your Monger coming up like that, I basically have to call my boss and tell him I'm a terrible person that does not have anything together.

I cannot do my job. And my doctor has told me to stay at home and do nothing like and I was petrified. And I don't know how long this will be for maybe two weeks, maybe longer. And it was out of the blue when I eventually did return to work, my boss, like they were like just amazing. Like they took so much care of me, had amazing support in place.

One of the things my boss did say to me was. Maybe next time, could you just keep us updated because yeah. It went from nothing to like extreme and I can totally see that now as well.

Nancy: Which I think is how it works because we're so unaware of our own process and we're trying to fix it.

Danielle: Yeah. So these people want to help us that was a big revelation for me is they didn't think I was a horrible person. They didn't, they still respected me. They still gave me work to do it was actually, they wanted to help. It's just that they had no idea where I was at.

Nancy: Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah.

Danielle: I spent six weeks, like slowly, surely getting used to it. And I did create a routine for myself. I did read, I did watch some TV, but I also went for a walk every single day. Would stay connected, core family or friends and things like that. But one of the most powerful things I did and still to this day I do is I started to take myself out for a coffee at a coffee shop, every single morning by myself.

And I love coffee. I'm like, I love going to Australia. Australia's got this beautiful, like cafe vibe, which is, where I was living at the time I am Australian. You'd probably pick that up from my accent. I'm living in London. I don't know. I haven't shared that with listeners yet, but It was terrifying because I'd never really done it a line unless I was like traveling in an exotic location.

And I had to learn how to be alone, I had to learn how to sit with the discomfort whilst trying to enjoy it and telling myself I must relax. I'm supposed to be relaxing. That's what I did. And it became a ritual and it's been it's a non-negotiable in my self-care well-being.

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome.

So you do that every day?

Danielle: Pretty much. Yeah. Sometimes. And I say sometimes I invite my partner to come with me. There is a version of it that happens pretty much every day, which to me, like sometimes it's 20 minutes, sometimes it's an hour, which is basically one of the core ingredients for me is spaciousness. There's no preconceived ideas of what that time is for. So sometimes, but it's never in front of a computer.

It's always me and my notebooks. I take about a gazillion notebooks with me to the cafe because I'm never sure what mood I'll be in. And it's just to be with myself. My thoughts sometimes I sit and stare. Sometimes I chat to the person sitting next to me. Sometimes I journal sometimes I like get ideas for blogs and, be creative for work.

But the idea is that it's me, myself and I

Nancy: that's awesome. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Because a lot of people don't have that relationship with themselves.

Danielle: And I didn't, I'd never stopped for long enough. I didn't know that I didn't. I thought I was, this confident, independent person and I was, but I had never been alone for long enough to really know myself. And I think that's what all the busy-ness had masked is anytime a question of like that might've popped up way back in the back of my heart or mind like, oh, is this job right for you? Should you still be doing this? It would get covered by the next thing, like the, the dinner date I had that night or the project deadline, or so there wasn't ever the spaciousness to sit with it.

My coffee date with myself started to create that space for me to actually, even just allow the questions to bubble the different questions give you different answers. And that really, I know your original question was essentially like, how did I end up being a joy coach?

That was where it started to bubble up. Like it was like how what are the bits of my life that feel really good? What are the bits that bring me joy and they wouldn't have ever bubbled up if I'd never given myself.

Nancy: Ah, I gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So then how did joy become, because you always had, so then, like you said, I always had this part of me that was positive and happy that you had been stifling or joyful, I guess I should say rather than happy.

So you really tapped into that part or …

Danielle: like I was still that person. I just more and more sorry that when I went down this path of questioning and following what made me feel good and even starting my business journey into coaching and training and all of that, the common thread. Anytime I ask myself what will make you feel good?

What will bring you more joy? Led me closer to coming alive again let me closer to feeling like that spark was always there, but it was like I was flaming it and suddenly I was like more and more I don't know, like I just felt so excited to be doing what I was doing. And even when I was in my full-time job whilst growing my business and during my training, I could say part time, but it was two full times.

People would say, aren't you busy on your stress? How do you do it all? And I'm like, no, because this thing that I'm growing on the side is fueling me because it's coming from a place of joy. That was part of it. And then the other part of it, there was this really pivotal kind of exercise I'd done as part of like a business program, and it was essentially to reach out to friends, family colleagues, and ask them what they believe your super powers are. Ask them what it is. So powerful, like just, yeah, just the most simple, yeah. Incredible question to ask

Nancy: and a hard question to ask I'm sure.

Danielle: Yeah. Like it feels a little bit awkward oh, can you please tell me what you like about me,

Nancy: but I can totally see that.

Yeah. I could see the power though, because so often. They see us so different, like in, can see minus all the crap in our heads.

Danielle: it's like my family who have obviously known me forever, I asked friends from like different walks and stages of my life. And I asked colleagues as well, like professional people and pretty much every single person wrote back and said some version of your positivity, your sunniness, your thoughtfulness.

And I was blown away. What I had to face in that moment was hang on a second. The very thing that you are a little bit holding back on a little bit, too shy to give all of it, because you're worried what people will think. The very thing that everyone keeps telling you, they love most about you.

What gives you the right to hold that back? Like these people are basically saying, that's what we love about you. And you've been to. I don't know, worried about what they will think, what they think has given me more.

Nancy: Right, yes.

Danielle: So that was a big catalyst for me in welcoming it a little bit more as well.

So it was these two sides of, Hey, the question I'm asking is all about joy and feeling good and my positivity and seeing the joy and the a different perspective and a different take on things is actually a superpower, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Because that's the thing. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your welcome, your story and diving into it a little deeper.

I think sometimes do. It's just helpful to hear the whole, what was it like to be to go into overwhelm, but the thing that and I'm just making this question up as I go. So bear with me is it's so nuanced. The part that I think we miss in the personal development world is the nuance of, and that's why, I'm thinking and talking at the same time, which is not my super power. So as you're talking, I'm like, oh, like I don't have that positivity bent.

Like I don't have that. So I have a glass half full, empty, a little bit bent and a little cynicism and that I can really, get stuck in and, but the it's my whole life. I have tried to overcome that by being positive and switching my mindset and changing. But in our conversation, it's coming, it's the realization of what if that bent is no better than yours positivity bent. Yeah. It's just a different bent. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Danielle: There's so much power in that. Isn't that even Hey, hang on. What if I don't resist this thing? That's probably just part of me, like, why allow it? What if I give it permission? And first of all, I'd say absolutely to anyone listening, please start ask that question to anyone in your life. What are my superpowers? What do you love about me? Because I think seeing it reflected back could give you so much truth that you're resisting right now. And it's what I think I love about what you saying, Nancy, like what was coming up for me there is instead of thinking, oh my God, I need to fix the negativity and only be positive. It goes back to what we were talking about at the start of the episode, which is. Actually all of the emotions are welcomed. They're all there to give you a gift. They're all there to maybe teach you something or show you a new perspective.

So instead of resisting it, like maybe what comes up about it? And I say on my website, I say I'm a positive thinking enthusiast. That doesn't mean, I believe that you should only be positive all of the time and only tell yourself the really cool things and keep telling yourself, I, everything is, amazing all the time which is probably a little bit of a myth around positive thinking.

Nancy: Yeah That's what I'm getting at. Yes.

Danielle: And I think for anyone who's not tapped into it a lot. It can almost put you off because you're like, but life isn't really great for me right now. I don't want to just tell myself life is good. Life is good. Life is good, but actually that's not what I'm saying.

And I know that's not what you teach either. That is not what positive thinking is about when you can have a positive mindset, but you also have to do the emotional. You just turn the tap on in saying life is cup is full. You the empty cup picture, the full cup. Actually, you have to sit with both, which goes to what we're saying at the start.

Like you have to sit with both, you have to welcome it all in, in order for you to take on that fresh perspective in order for you to think and feel differently, you have to sit with it. And it takes me to a lot about what I teach around joy as well. And I talk about joy being a muscle and you have to practice feeling good in our life.

And a bit about positive thinking that I come to is what we tend to do is we give a lot of it's what you focus on is what you get. So if you're only focusing on the empty. Then you've got a problem. Yeah. But if you're acknowledging that sometimes it's full, sometimes it's empty, like giving both sides a little bit of attention.

Then you're welcoming a deeper wider range of experiences into your life. Why I focus so much on joy is because I feel like we almost have this kind of push away mentality. No, no things are not good or no things are really stressful. I need to fix the stress instead of hang on a second.

What does it even feel like, for me to feel relieved for me to feel calm for me to feel joy? So if you can practice that, if you can build a muscle around it, so that on your crappy days on your whether it's a high anxiety day or the sewage smell coming through the back all day, because your muscle strength is that because you even know what feeling good feels, right?

It's like you can access that state with more. With more ease.

Nancy: Yeah, I, yeah, because that's what happened. What, what happened this morning? When I was doing the walk-in before I had the aha about let's just allow this. I was like, look at the sky, be grateful, doing all that forced positivity. And, but then after I had the moment of this is hard, what if it's just hard to feel this way? And we're just going to let this go. Then when I was like, wow, look at the blue sky. It's so pretty. Like my perspective did shift. And so the what I think the takeaway is that we lump emotions and mindset, all in behavioral and one big thing. And that we think we can manipulate our emotions by switching our mindset or our behavior, instead of allowing the emotion and acknowledging the emotion. And then that opens us up to a deeper perspective, which is almost exactly what you just said, (laughter).

Danielle: because I was thinking it's almost like in that moment you were thinking. I must think the sky is beautiful today. Like you were trying to think your way into the feeling, whereas actually have to feel like, so, maybe I'm just going to sit in the grumpiness.

Maybe that's okay. Gave you a sense of relief so that when you do then look at the sky, you can say, yes, the sky is beautiful, but you can also feel it.

Nancy: Yes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's different. And because to your point about practicing joy, because I have been practicing that, perspective, then it does tap in easily.

Yeah. Then I was able to look up and see it easier. But the, but it's not about practicing, that's why I get so caught up in just think positive or just say what you're grateful for, because if you have an acknowledged, what's really going on, that's just a bandaid on top of everything.

Danielle: Yes, I so agree. And I love that you brought up gratitude actually, because if you just say I'm grateful. I'm grateful. Yeah, it's nice. And you can maybe remember more things you're grateful for, but to actually practice gratitude to me is when I say why, when I say, because what is it about those that makes me grateful?

Because you cannot answer that question without feeling. Yes, right? Yeah. I'm grateful. It's a sunny day today, but that's just like a high-achiever. Yep. I'm grateful. It's sunny. I'm grateful. I'm Nancy right now. But when I say so grateful, it's sunny because I feel more alive when the sun is shining. I love that feeling of warmth on my skin.

It makes me feel more energized. I couldn't help, but feeling that right now.

Nancy: Yeah. That, because I was just, I was actually doing my continuing education for my license during COVID, which was like, yay me using my time productively in my high functioning. But one of the guys talked about gratitude and I always say name five things you were grateful for that happened that day that are unique. That's usually my thing, but he said, pick one thing you're grateful for at the end of the day and live it with all of your senses. Oh, what you did, you could feel the sun and the, That, because you know that because then you're immersed in it and it has such a different power than just, I'm happy for my sheets.

I'm glad I have a bed. I'm glad that which is, but he said that it has to be something that's unique to that day, which I thought was just, I love that.

Danielle: What I love about it is it really supports you to go into the immersion because there's five different senses you've got to touch on.

And what it also makes you do is slow down. And take a poll. You cannot rush these things. You cannot rush gratitude. You cannot rush feelings.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. That was a good little wrap up there, right there. So tell us, so tell people where they can find you, what you got happen in, how they can work with you, et cetera, et cetera.

Danielle: Ooh. Okay. So I think the best place to come and get a flavor for what I'm all about is over on my website, which is the Daisy patch.co.uk. And I have a ton of content there specifically around blog posts. Very much like what I'm focused on is working with highly ambitious, stressed out women. They tend to be in their thirties and at this like stuck crossroads and.

I really take them from like questioning. Should I shouldn't I quit my job all the way through to living a joyful life, regardless of what life, regardless of what job. So a lot of my blog content is supporting you to feel more human, to bring in joy, but also answer some of those tough questions and my favorite, like kind of social place to hang.

Instagram. So at the Daisy patch, coaching over an Instagram, come and say hi I really love hearing from people in my DMs and the comments. Like I love conversation as you've probably gathered know.

I do have like various offers and from time to time in terms of group programs and like digital courses and things like that. But the best place to be updated is to come and grab my emails. Like just sign up to them. Actually, if you go to the Daisy patch.co.uk/ feel-good, I've got a call list of 99 ways to feel really good.

Which is just like a fun way to say, like when you're stuck in a right, sometimes it's nice to just throw a fresh perspective at you to just pick up something. Maybe I'll try one of these things and it'll just put me on that kind of bridge to joy. So that's probably a really cool place to some people actually.

Nancy: Cool. Because I think it is sometimes, like changing your state in those, can really flip things. I think that's positive. Where did the daisy patch come from?

Danielle: So it's got lots of meaning to me personally, and then symbolically as well. So I just love daisies, the fresh and fun and yellow is my favorite color.

And I grew up with like huge, big Daisy bushes in my grand's backyard, so that it has a lot of familiarity. And then Daisy is symbolically very much. Joy and happiness and like new life and beginnings and sunniness and things like that. The patch is about this kind of metaphor.

A two-fold metaphor around seeing personal growth in your life and taking care of yourself and your own wellbeing. Your garden and really supporting that patch of growth in your life. Like it's always going to take the nourishing and the care, and sometimes you're planting seeds. Sometimes you're pulling out weeds, you can change what flowers you have there.

But it's also to say that we've all got our own patches and it's part of this kind of grand vision I have with the Daisy patch to grow it into all these patches globally, where we can all support and nourish and have that community. So it's got like this multi-filled aspects.

Nancy: Oh,that's awesome.

I'm glad I asked. I was so curious

Danielle: It has been so long since I have talked about it and it brings me so much joy to talk about it.

Nancy: So that was really fun. Okay. Yeah. This was awesome. Thank you so much for being willing to, come on and just talk about this stuff. In a loose way, it was really, I had a lot of aha for me, so that's awesome.

Hopefully all the listeners did too.

Danielle: Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy: Honestly, I hadn't thought about joy in this way. This conversation was an eye opener for me and has encouraged me to find more joy in my everyday life. Since this conversation, I've noticed how I suck all the joy out of things by turning them into duty.

I just talked about this in last week's episode. Number 135, finding joy is a meaningful goal. It brings more authenticity and loyalty into our lives, which is exactly what we need. If you want to hear more about my take on positive thinking. Listen to episode 102 Radical Acceptance Versus Positive Thinking.

---

Episode 135: The Myth Of The "Right Way"

In today’s episode, we’re talking about doing things the “Right Way” and—surprise!—how there’s no such thing.

Today, we’re talking about doing things the “Right Way” and—surprise!—how there’s no such thing. 

Unsurprisingly, many of my clients live for “doing it right.” 

For them, there is nothing more amazing as hearing: Yes, you’re doing it right. In fact, one of the most popular phrases I hear from clients is: I did okay, right? They’re always looking for affirmation that they did it right. 

So why is the need to do things the “Right Way” such a common experience of people with High Functioning Anxiety? 

Doing it right, following the rules, and being a good girl keeps us from criticism. And growing up—either in our family of origin or through school and church—we learned that following the rules earns us LOTS of praise. 

Not only that, but it protects us from the anxiety of not knowing what to do next. It keeps us safe—at least that’s what we convince ourselves of. 

What rules have you created for yourself? Let’s explore this together in this week’s episode and find out what we can do about it. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why there is no such thing as doing things the “right way”

• How the quest for doing things the “right way” leads to judging others

• What we miss out on when we constantly try to do things the “right way”

• How curiosity is key if we’re trying to understand why we’re afraid of getting things wrong

Some of the resources mentioned in this episode:

• Coach In Your Pocket

Transcript:

I remember the first vacation we took after my dad died. When I learned that always believing there is a right way isn't helpful. First, a little background, my dad strongly believed there was a right way and a wrong way to do anything. You name it, he knew it--needing to mow your lawn--wanting to invest in the stock market. He knew the right way. Hoping to grow a wonderful garden--he had it down. Needing to plan a perfect vacation--he knew exactly how to do it. Yes. I realized that objectively his right wasn't necessarily everyone else's right. But in my dad's world, there was a right way and a wrong way, regardless of who you were and what you preferred. Not surprisingly, he passed the need to do it the right way on.

He had a lot of rules for traveling where to eat, what time to eat, how to get there, how early to arrive, what to order on and on and on—a lot of rules. And I being a dutiful daughter, I knew how to follow the rules. Because the praise I received when I followed the rules, was like candy to a baby.

I lived for it. So before he died, I would be the one who made all the reservations, planned the perfect place and time for dinner and lapped up all of his praise.

So back to the first vacation we took without my dad, just me, my mom and my husband. As we're walking along the beach, headed to a new dinner spot, I was sharing what I had researched about the place with my mom and my husband and regaling them with the rest of the week schedule. Unknowingly, I was going through a familiar routine, share all the right things I'd done, and get ready to lap up the praise. Except my mom and my husband, they don't care about eating at the right place or at the right time. They are not rule followers. They are fly by the seat of your pants, people. So they didn't give me any praise. They just said, "Well, that sounds good. I'm sure whatever you pick is going to be great."

I will never forget that moment. As I stood there, the wind blowing on my face, sand beneath my feet. I realized how much energy I had spent on doing it right. How hooked into it I was and how much this value controlled my life. And I started getting curious about it.

You're listening to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

When I first realized that I had inherited this need to do it right for my dad. I was sad. I realized no matter how hard I worked to do things the right way, I would never again get the praise from my father. And then, as I got more curious, I could see how this desire to do it the right way infiltrated almost all of my life. On the one hand, doing it the right way gave me peace. And on the other hand, it kept me in check.

This month, we're exploring the unique values of someone with high functioning anxiety. Last week, we talked with Beryl young about the value of creativity, and this week I'm talking about the value of doing it right. Many of my clients live for doing it right. There is nothing as amazing as hearing. Yes, you're doing it right. In fact, one of the most popular phrases I hear from clients is "I did okay. Right?" Or "That's okay. Right?" Looking for affirmation that they did it right.

So why is the need to do things the right way, such a common experience of people with high functioning anxiety? Doing it right, following the rules, being a good girl keeps us from criticism

And bonus growing up, either in a family of origin or through school or church, we learned the following, the rules will get us lots of praise. It protects us from the anxiety of not knowing what to do next. It keeps us safe. At least that's what we convince ourselves. So what rules have you created for yourself?

Do you have rules around travel plans? Do you have rules about how to load the dishwasher? Do you have rules about where to park in a parking lot or how to do the grocery shop? I bet you have rules for just about everything. Here are three things I want to cover about the idea of doing it right.

The first thing is there is no right, way. Not surprisingly, people who are looking for the right way. We tend to be a perfectionist. We rationally know there is no one way to do anything. There is no right way yet we spend our lives looking for it the right way to drive, eat workout, cook, do a project, trim a tree. You name it. We're looking for the right one.

This belief leads us to a life of black and white thinking where there is an absolute right way and an absolute wrong way. In all situations, our monger believes finding the right way will protect us from being attacked or criticized external. Here are a few examples from my own life to show how sneaky these myths can be.

There's a right way to walk the dog. First thing in the morning, before 8:00 AM for 30 minutes, there's a right time to wake up, waking up early, meaning before 7:00 AM bonus points. If I can get up before 6:30am. Yeah. There's a right thing to eat for breakfast. Now I go through phases with this one, but right now, it's oatmeal with fruit.

There's a right order to do the morning tasks. There's a right time to fall asleep. There's a right amount of sleep. Eight to nine hours. That's ideal. There's a right way to work out and a right amount of time to work out. 60 minutes is the amount of time, and it must be cardio with a little bit of weights.

These rules become even more rigid because if you can't do it right, there is no sense in doing it. For example, if I can't work out for 60 minutes, then I won't do it. There's no sense working out if it's not for 60 minutes. Hello, rigidity. When you start to pull apart these right way myths, you start to see the faulty logic.

Well, who decides right when it comes to doing it right? The ironic thing is that right is very subjective. Your definition of right is different from mine because right is based on personal preferences, values, ideology, et cetera. And also, even if we meet our own standards and technically do it right, there will be no celebrating because we can always improve.

We can always do it better. Even after my dad would praise me for picking the right restaurant for dinner, I would spend the rest of the evening scooping out the best table to request the next time we came in, because you can always improve on right.

A great example of this doing it right is efficiency. Efficiency is a right way measure for me. When I go to the grocery store, I have a lot of rules on how to do it right. But even if I accomplished my task in the most efficient way possible, I still beat myself up for something. I just never celebrate the win. Maybe I didn't pack the groceries in the car right. Or I forgot to pick up the soap, or I picked the wrong checkout line. I always fail.

The second thing I want you to know about doing it right. Is the quest for right can lead to more judgment of others by the BFF. She loves to come out and share how others aren't doing it right in order to make you feel better.

Well, they aren't working out right. They didn't pack for their trip, right. If only they knew how to pack correctly. They are running late, a better person would have left early. They walked out of the house in wet hair. What were they thinking? They're smoking. I mean, at least we don't do that. They picked the wrong grocery line.

As I've said before, when your monger is out in full force, that usually means your monger has been out in full force as well. So judgment, especially unnecessarily super petty judgment is time to get curious. Some questions. I ask myself when I noticed the BFF. What am I judging them for?

How do I see that judgment in myself? Am I being a little rigid here? Does this really matter? What's the bigger picture and where do I need to add some kindness for me or for them?

The third thing I want you to know about doing it right. Is duty versus joy. The thing about the quest for the right way is it keeps us stuck in duty.

We miss the joy in life because we're so busy worrying about doing it right. For example, this podcast, I love writing my podcast. Honestly, I just love writing, finding the right words, digging deep for the underlying meaning asking myself, but how do I challenge myself to go deeper?

And yet often, my writing, especially on these podcasts, gets too bogged down for me in doing it right. Writing the right message, using the right language, hitting the deadline. I get so caught up in the duty of it. I miss the joy and acquest to protect myself from criticism. I miss the joy.

This concept of duty versus joy has been a big one for me. The idea of choosing duty over joy makes me sad. I see how it plays out in my life, and I see how it plays out in my clients' lives. We missed the train. Okay. So what can you do about it? There are lots of messages out there about "break the rules." "Stop being a good girl," but this is bigger than just a mindset shift. This requires us to get curious and start picking at the rigidness that surrounds our lives. The part that gets overlooked by the theories that say, well, just stop doing that is that we get something for doing it, right? Whether that be a sense of security praise or less anxiety, when we stop doing it, it feels unsafe.

It feels overwhelmingly scary. That's why we just can't stop doing it. It's too scary, which is why curiosity is so key after you noticed the right way value rearing its ugly head. Get curious, ask yourself, what is this protecting me from? What am I afraid of? Am I choosing duty over joy? Be kind to yourself and loosen up that rigidity.

Our tendency will be to judge ourselves to say, good grief. Here you go again. You're so rigid and judgy too. You know, there is no right way. Come on.

Instead, try. Wow. This is really hard finding the right way is hard-wired. I know it helped me in the past, but let's loosen that up a little. Or it's so hard to feel this tied down to doing it right.

Is this rule really needed? Can we rebel against the rule? Can you find some joy here? Because this line of thinking gets us stuck in absolutes. One way to notice this value playing out in your life is when you make if-then statements. If I don't go to the grocery store on the way home, then I'm a bad one.

If I don't work late, then I will get fired. If I commit to a dinner date, then I will be stuck the whole night. If I don't work out today, then I will be out of shape forever. See how their statements are absolutes of right and wrong. Your monger will never give you the win. You could always have done it better, but in all honesty, there is no right.

There are no absolutes. When you catch yourself engaging in all or nothing if-then statements, challenge yourself to come up with as many options as possible. Even if they seem absurd, get in the practice of expanding your options. Give yourself a checkmark. Every time you choose joy over duty, or every time you notice that if-then statement and loosen it up, aim for three checkmarks a day.

This type of exercise works with the love of checkmarks and accomplishment, but in a positive way. For example, if I don't go to the grocery store tonight, then I can go tomorrow after work, or I can ask my partner to go, or I can bring a cooler to work and grab a few things on my lunch hour and do the big shopping on Saturday.

If I don't work out today, then I can look at my schedule and find the best time to fit in a consistent workout. Maybe it would be best to do it in the morning or at lunch or turn some of my regular work meetings into walking meetings. Practice practice practice recently, a client of mine said, I wish you could just give me the freaking five step approach.

And then poof, I would be healed. Practice. Practice. Practice is annoying. Yep. I hear you. It certainly is. This is one thing I love about my work with clients via Voxer because I can regularly remind them of how they're making progress. It's hard for us to see our own progress. So it is helpful to have friends, family, or a coach there to say, wow, look how far you've come.

This is another form of positive reinforcement and a way to keep us doing this work. The work is more than just changing your mindset. It's really getting in there and changing hardwired patterns of duty praise and worthiness messages that we heard and swallowed for our own protection benefit, or because we had no choice.

And now we know they aren't serving us anymore. So it does take practice, practice, practice, but let's pick joy over duty. Let's be kind to ourselves. Let's remember this takes practice, but most of all, let's remember we got this.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

Episode 134: How Anxiety and Perfectionism Can Get In The Way Of Creativity

In today’s episode, I am talking with Beryl Young of Momtography a mom, photographer, and teacher, about High Functioning Anxiety and creativity.

Honestly, I have always had a mixed relationship with creativity. 

I have almost always loved it and thought to myself, I want to do that more! And then months, years pass before I actively pursue something creative. Why?

My Monger’s message of perfectionism and practicality always gets in the way:

“She tries but she has no talent”. 

“What are you going to do with it? You are going to have all these art projects and nowhere to put them.”

“You have to drag all the art supplies out and spend MORE money on creative. Get real.”

I get in my own way. 

This is why I wanted to talk to someone who deals with High Functioning Anxiety and is still able to pursue creativity for a living.

Today, I am talking with Beryl Young of Momtography. She is a mom, photographer, teacher, and creator of popular classes to support parents in capturing the life they love. A former elementary school teacher by day, she’s taken her experience in education and photography and brought a message of creativity, resilience, connection, and fulfillment for camera lovers young and old.

Beryl’s work has been featured on The Huffington Post, PicMonkey, Mpix, and Digital Photography School. She’s taught hundreds of moms around the globe how to use their camera to its fullest potential and connect in deeper ways to the people they love most in the world.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Beryl realized that she had High Functioning Anxiety and how it shows up in her life

• How she got around the perfectionism that can get in the way of creativity and gave herself permission to create

• How creativity helps her manage her anxiety

• What self-care looks like to her

Resources mentioned:

• Momtogtraphy

• Free Capture What Matters Workshop

• Instagram: @momtographyceo

• Understanding Girls With AD/HD by Kathleen G. Nadeau

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Beryl: When I was faced with a blank canvas. I was like, oh, I don't want to mess it up. So yeah. What do I do with this? Which is funny because my mom is an artist and she's a mixed media artist and she has high functioning anxiety. So it shows up differently for different people too.

Nancy: Honestly, I've always had a mixed relationship with creativity.

I've rarely engaged in a creative pursuit and thought that was awful. I've almost always loved it and thought to myself, I'm going to do that more. And then months, years past before I actively pursue something creative. Why? In short, my monger, her message of perfectionism and practicality always gets in the way I can hear my fifth grade art teacher telling my mom.

She tries well, but she just has no talent. Or my Monger says, what are you going to do with it? You're going to have all these art projects and nowhere to put them, or you have to drag all the art supplies out and spend more money on creative crap. Come on.

I get in my own way when I can get past all those messages and engage my creativity, whether that be painting creative writing or practicing embroidery.

I absolutely love it. This is why I wanted to talk to Beryl Young of Momtography someone who deals with high functioning anxiety and teaches creativity for a living.

Your listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Beryl Young photo mom and mentor is a mom photographer, teacher and creator of popular classes to support parents and capturing the life they love. A former elementary school teacher by day she takes her experience in education and photography and has written a story of creativity, resilience, connection, and fulfillment for camera levers, young and old barrels work has been featured on the Huffington post PicMonkey M pics and digital photography.

She's taught hundreds of moms around the globe, how to use their camera to its fullest, potential as a tool to connect them in a deeper way to the people they love most in the world. Beryl and I talk about mongers and creativity and how they go together. I love Beryl’s, honest down to earth approach. We also discussed realizing she had high-functioning anxiety and how it shows up in her life. What self care looks like to her, how creativity helps her anxiety. How she got around her perfectionism that can get in the way of creativity, giving yourself permission to create and how you get past the message of what am I going to do with it? Once it's done.

Okay. I'm so excited today. We are going to be talking with Beryl Young about high functioning anxiety and creativity and the intersection of them, which I'm super fascinated to find out.

Welcome Beryl.

Beryl: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.

Nancy: Thanks for showing up. Okay, so I just want to jump right in and ask, because I know you have an interesting story. How does high-functioning anxiety show up for you? Yeah.

Beryl: In so many ways that I really didn't realize, I don't think until I started my own business, like I'm a creative business owner.

And as I was building my business, I would realize that I would set these expectations for myself on what I wanted my business to look like, what I wanted my life to look like. And when that expectation and reality didn't intersect. I would beat myself up. I don't consider myself like depressed, but I would go into these depressed states where I just couldn't get motivation to do anything.

And then I also have those perfectionistic traits to control oh, I can do all of this. I'm just going to do it myself. So I tend to go into that realm as well. And if I don't think I'm going to be good at something, I just won't do it at all, especially, and that link between creativity and anxiety, I.

My main modality for creativity is a camera. And I think I chose photography because I was like, oh, there's no blank page. Like I can just go out and take a photo of something. And it's right there. When I was faced with a blank canvas, I was like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to mess it up.

So what do I do with this?

Nancy: WAY more pressure Totally

Beryl: Totally WAY more pressure. Which is funny because my mom is an artist and she's a mixed media artist and she has high functioning anxiety. So it shows up differently for different people too. But I get the same way, like even with writing, like I enjoy creative writing too all by all sorts of pretty journals.

Because they're pretty and I want pretty things, but then. I'm like, oh, I don't want to write in it because what if I mess up?

Nancy: amen. To that. I have so many empty journals for that. Very reason. Yeah. Yeah.

Beryl: Or if I use this, then I'm going to use the whole thing. Like I, I also, I don't know if this goes along with the high functioning anxiety you'll know better than I do, but just I'm great at starting points.

As a creative it's oh, I have an idea. Let me start it. But then the follow through and finishing is very hard to,

Nancy: yeah. We call that being an 80 percenter in our house. We do 80%. And then the last 20% you don't have to do because you might do it wrong. And so if you only do the 80%, then you know that still open to perfect it.

Beryl: yep, that’s me. (Laughter) So here I am

Nancy: Before we hopped on, you were talking about how you figured this out because it was, it wasn't like you've known the high functioning anxiety and ADHD is another component of this for you. Tell me how you figured out. Have you the journey you went on to get to the,

Beryl: So we have to backtrack about four years ago.

First I went to the doctor just for like my annual checkup. And as the doctor and I were talking, I mentioned that I had been feeling anxious for a certain period of time. And as doctors sometimes are willing to do, he's oh, here's some medicine. Why don't you try taking some anxiety medicine? And so I did and I felt better.

And so that was the first inclination where I was like, oh, maybe I have anxiety symptoms. Because I started to take the medication and I did feel like, oh, some of my heart palpitations went away. Like I didn't realize I was experiencing certain physical symptoms of anxiety and I went for that doctor's appointment.

And then that paired with the fact that I'm a mom, I have a nine-year-old daughter and it was around the time that she was in kindergarten, that we started to just see how things were going with her in school. And I was like, I think she had. ADHD. And I said this to a couple of my mom, friends, and, it was always an even like the school, they would blow it off.

Oh, she's, it's just developmental. But she was always this busy kid that would never sit still. We did a, like one of my dearest neighbor friends. We would like exchange babysitting. So they would go on a date night and then my husband and I would go on a date night and she came over one night and she basically said my daughter, she won't sit still to do anything. And I'm like, okay, finally, someone else besides me and we had this like catch 22 because she was a birthday where she was like one of the youngest in her class. She made the birthday cutoff by four days. So some of what was going on in school was very much developed by them.

Some of it. I was like, ah, I don't know that this is, and so I really had to turn into this advocate of like really starting to learn about what ADHD looks like and how it can manifest in different ways that it's not just the boy that won't sit still in class that has this constant motor and. As I was doing that research by the time she got to second grade, we were still coming up against some of the same challenges that were happening in kindergarten.

And so we went to the doctor to get her evaluated and she was diagnosed with ADHD and, being her advocate and doing all of that research I started to just. Read blogs and listen to podcasts and look into books. And I came across this amazing book called Understanding Girls With ADHD. And that was when, like all the light bulbs.

Some of the high functioning anxiety traits were also very much traits that were talking about in this book. And so I then had to turn around and start educating the school. My daughter has high functioning anxiety as well. It doesn't manifest at school. We would go through TSA and she would hide behind me at age seven.

Like not willing to talk to the TSA agent because she was afraid she wasn't going to say the right thing and that they were going to they were giving her an angry look. But at school she's comfortable with her teachers. She's comfortable with her friends. That speaks volumes for the school that she goes to, but they're like she doesn't have anxiety.

She doesn't have ADHD. She's fine. She's adjusted, she's doing this, that and the other And then I would shine the light on myself and my own, like insecurities in my business, in my life, in my upbringing. And I was like, oh, you know that saying the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree, right?

Be like apple first. And then I was like, oh, hello, tree me. I think I need to explore this for myself too. And I didn't go through the full psychological evaluation as an adult. The doctor was like, oh, let's just do a little bit of a self evaluation. But I was essentially diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago.

Went, huh? I don't think I actually had anxiety. I think I had high functioning anxiety that went along with the ADHD that I've probably had my entire life. Yeah. So yeah. That's my story.

Nancy: I think it's fascinating. Because I think two things are fascinating. One just the combination of ADHD and high functioning anxiety and how that we use those coping skills.

I mean it's similar coping skills. I always say we have anxiety and to quiet the anxiety, we do these unhealthy coping skills, perfectionism people, pleasing, et cetera, et cetera, worrying about doing it wrong and the critic and all that stuff. But the same time, it's hard to pull apart.

We do the same thing with ADHD symptoms and we don't want anyone to see. So we're trying to keep it hidden that we have these, this zaniness in her head for lack of a better way. We develop these unhealthy coping mechanism, isms around us. So I think that's fascinating that, that shows up in both of those areas.

And I think it's fascinating that so often, like that's one of the main reasons I, my mom, clients come in to see me is they're like, I see this in my kids. And I'm trying to get myself under control so that I can help them.

Beryl: Totally. Yeah, no. And I was like, I have to be a good role model for my daughter.

And what does that look like? And it's also interesting to go, oh, the way it manifests in her is different than the way it manifests in me. I got a lot of my perfectionistic, like people pleasing. That my mom has, and we were both very hard workers that enjoyed school. Part of the ADHD executive functioning traits are that like, when you have diagnosed ADHD, you can hyper focus on the things that you really enjoy, but then the things that are difficult or mentally taxing you avoid.

I was avoiding a lot of things in my business, but I never avoided school. I actually enjoyed reading and I was good at school. So my anxiety never surfaced. My daughter likes socializing. She likes people. She likes the social aspects and the connection of going to school, but she's not as motivated.

But learning new things or, and the areas that are difficult for her, she can't necessarily hyper focus on. And it's very interesting to be parents seeing a child going, wait a second. Why don't you enjoy school more? I loved school, right? But you want to be able to support them. And so we have had to put a mirror, not just on her, but on me too, to go, okay how can I relate to her in this way?

Nancy: Yeah. Because I think that would be, because I don't have kids and I think that would be so hard to not put your stuff in general, not put your stuff on them but also the idea that. How can you not like school? It served me. It was a place for me to channel and get good grades and, like to really be an encouraging the apple, to be the tree and to recognize no, that's a separate being.

Beryl: Totally. Yeah, no, that separation of okay, this is her life and her expense. But also, still being the mom.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

Beryl: because her high functioning anxiety also shows up and my mom just told me I could do school. I'm not good at school.

I can't lean into those perfectionistic qualities with school. And so there is this like messy emotional roller coaster of okay, I know you don't like school because of certain structures or you don't enjoy these things. And unlike me. She doesn't have as many of the people-pleasing qualities that I do.

Yes. She has other traits of high functioning anxiety, people pleasing. Isn't one of them. So she doesn't care who she offends in the process. That's not to say she wants her teachers to like her. She's not going to work hard on an assignment if she doesn't enjoy it

Nancy: solely to get the good praise from the teacher.

Beryl: Correct. She'll find other ways, but then she'll come home from school. Her high functioning anxiety, which I see in myself too, is the teacher doesn't like me, because I didn't do this work. Or I don't know how to do this. Or, she has a hard time finding her personal confidence and as do I, especially in the area when you don't feel like you can show up as your best self, where you can't have the perfect byproduct of whatever it is you're working on, right?

Nancy: Yeah. It's interesting. Because growing up, my mom also high functioning anxiety. And so she gave me a lot of like tips for how to survive the real world.

So she would walk me through This is how you make friends. And this is what you, this is the game you need to play. And these are the people that, if you suck up to these people, you'll have it easier. And just gave me these backdoor approaches to stuff, which was, I look at some point in my life, I was like, I'm so glad she gave that to me.

Because she really gave me like a, how to model, which was helpful. Because that's what she wanted. And so she gave it to me, but I never got to figure it out for myself. I was always figuring out what was her go-to, I was following the rules that she had given me, and that's how I set up my life to follow those rules rather than figuring it out for myself.

Beryl: So I know my mom did that for us too. That really resonates with me because I feel like for a long time, her model was passed down to me. You work hard. And not everyone's going to like you, and this is, we just stick to yourself and not, instead of trying to be friends with everybody, like some of her people pleasing stuff, she recognized it, but it's also interesting.

Because one of her favorite sayings was kill them with kindness. And I'm like that might've been a little bit of the people pleasing too. I also agree with that methodology as an adult too, though. But there were certain things and I can't think of a specific example right now that at some point I'm like, oh, this model of what she's passed down to me is not working for me right. In my life. And I had to reconcile that for myself.

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. And I think picking that apart is hard, and then also then I'm assuming could be triggering. Are, am I passing that down? How do I not do that to my kid? How do I not. Not that it was all terrible.

Like I think, the intention of my mom was so good. Like she was really trying to make life easier for me, but she didn't leave any room for me to figure it out for, for me to ask, is this helping? Is this how I want to do it? Especially as I got older, it would have been cool to have that be a conversation, a

Beryl: That’s a struggle for all moms How do I not mess my kind up?

Nancy: Totally. Yeah. And how do I be kind to myself when I know I have, like totally, like I just had a client recently who was like, who told me she had I just had a really bad mom moment. And she told me, the moment. And I said then you just practice Brené Brown and you circle back and you explain what happened.

That's all you could do, yeah. For sure is having that kindness. But yeah. Because I think a lot of times we want to, as adults, then we want to blame our parents, for, but to recognize they did the best they could with what they had the same as we're doing the best we can with what we,

Beryl: Mom and I just had that conversation back at Thanksgiving.

I think I had to do a lot of self inner work just around who I wanted to be. And my fears of letting my parents down when I walked the path that was different than how they had raised me, not wildly different. It wasn't like I was going out and doing terrible things, but even like getting tattoos and dying my hair pink is this image that my family.

Expects of me. I had a lot of fear wrapped in that, which was like, I was like in my early thirties, I'm like, I am in my early thirties. I should not care what my parents think. If I get tattoos and dye my hair pink and it was a thing, but it was shocking to hear. I always felt like getting. Body art. I thought my parents were not going to approve of that just because of like the portrayal of who you are.

Because we're people pleasers in our family, right? As this, the daughter that I want to showcase to my friends, when my mom and I actually had a conversation about it, it was her own high-functioning anxiety. Around like medical stuff is the tattoo parlor clean. Are you going to get some disease from going and getting this done?

She could care less about the artistic aspects. So it was interesting to see my fear. Yes, work completely different manifestation of what her fears were. But we were sitting down and just talking about some of those things about, ways, her anxiety surfaced when we were younger. And she actually said to me I hope, when you realize now that you're an adult, that we were just doing the best we could with what we had.

And what a beautiful, like self-awareness on her part to have that. Yeah,

Nancy: absolutely. Yeah. That's such a gift. Yeah. Yeah, because when I sometimes I'll think back and be like, oh my gosh, like how old was I? When my mom was my age meant to be like, oh, like in my mind she had it altogether. And then to think, oh, she felt like I feel right now, which is not having it all together.

That is an interesting that's just an interesting place to go that whole generational surviving. Totally interesting. Okay. So that went down a turn that I wasn't expecting which is why I love having these conversations. I want to take it back to creativity because for a lot of people, and you've mentioned this with the blank page and the, that I'm not, I can't even, maybe not for a lot of people, but for me, creativity is hard.

That is the ultimate trigger. And it is something that really helps when I can bust through all the crappy messages. And I can even remember, it was a couple of years ago, my husband and I took a painting class. My husband is loves to be creative. He took a painting, we took a painting class and I have the typical story of art class and the art teacher took my mom aside and was like, yeah, she does not have it. Like just, let her slide on through, because she's not going to, and we did this painting and I loved it. Like it was so relaxing and I loved it and it was like, wow, you have that old message that you suck at art, but that's, and that's the only message you're hearing when there are a lot of messages potentially there.

I know I'm not alone in that thought, because I've heard it a thousand times, but speak to all of that. Totally.

Beryl: That's a big question, but we actually have in our company. My business is called momtography Moms and photography blended together. And I hear this a lot. Because of some of the things that I said before oh, I don't feel creative or the creative things I used to do. I can't find time to do as a mom.

And so creativity just feels hard. And I don't know if you're a Liz Gilbert follower. I love the book big magic. And so a lot of our methodologies at momtographer. Yeah. We're inspired by her work. And

Nancy: I have to say briefly to interrupt you quickly. It's so funny. I did not like that book initially because I was like, oh, this is too Woo, woo. The idea that the creative ideas out there and at finds you blah, blah, blah. But I swear to God. Writing my book was a big magic thing. That was downloaded to me from someplace else. Like I know, like I I'm a believer in that concept since I wrote my book, because it totally was.

Beryl: So I have some thoughts about that.

Okay. The first thought I want to I'll share at least share a methodology, and then I'll share my thought on your book and how it connects to high functioning anxiety, because. The first piece of our kind of creative coaching methodology at momtographer is to get curious. And what I loved from big magic is that was Gilbert said, if you're having trouble anchoring into your creativity to think of it as curiosity, instead of creativity.

Yeah, and that's not a direct quote, but that's just my interpretation of it, but I know she uses the word curiosity, and I was like, I love that for every mom that is struggling to be creative or anchor into that. If you ask, what are you curious about today? Usually a mom can come up with an answer that we work with like pretty quickly. I want to take a picture of my kid, or I want to take a picture of the flowers or I'm just curious about getting the dishes done in my sink. Like sometimes it has nothing to do with the creative experience. And what I realized for me, because I had some similar reactions to you about that.

Like the woo-woo sides of big magic, even though I do tend to go down the woo-woo path a little bit, but, waiting for that train to come through and you got to catch it before it runs away. Some of that is true. And some of it is just, another piece of our methodology is consistency.

Sometimes you just got to sit down and do it, but at some point, if you are creative and writing is a creative experience. And I have found in writing some of our programs or in, yeah, there are those kinds of just big magic type modes. Where I'm like, oh, that thing I just said to a coaching client, I don't know where it came from.

It came from somewhere else, but it was the right thing to say in that moment. And it was because I let my guard down and let my anxiety I just in the words of Elsa, let it go little bit. Yeah. And I think sometimes we can't listen to our inner voice and our inner intuition, when our levels of high-functioning anxiety are constantly like, what are people going to think of this or that when that inner critic is getting really loud, it's harder for those things to get in.

I tried to find strategies for myself and for our students to get around some of those perfectionistic tendencies.

Nancy: Okay. Because there's, I think the idea of a couple of things, I like the idea of the consistency in the sense of. But what bugged me about the Elizabeth Gilbert was like, it was just seemed like obviously the title of the book is big magic, but it seemed like I could sit down and get an idea and just write it.

And it would be amazing, but it, that consistency piece, the curiosity piece and the consistency piece are also because that those were big factors in writing my book. Like that I had been writing for years that I had a lot of curiosity about the subject that it wasn't just like all of a sudden, I just woke up and got inspired to write something about chemistry.

When I hadn't done anything in chemistry ever, it was, this is something that inspires me. Let me write about it. Something I'm curious about, let me write about it. So I like that idea because that's what lets your guard down. Totally those two steps.

Beryl: other two, because it's our creative coaching methodology is four CS.

So curiosity is that first one. And then we talk about commitment, curious, and you write all those ideas down. What are you curious about? Which one are you willing to commit to? Because sometimes our moms come forward and the camera's the way in, but they're like, wait, what really? What I want to be doing creatively?

This, I want to build this business, or I want to write this book or I want to do this other thing. That was a surprising thing for me, because I started my business out of this traumatic experience and how photography helped me heal from it. And I think I was surprised. I was like, no, I'm a photography teacher, but then all these women would come in and they pick up their camera and go, but no, wait, there's these other creative things that I love to do.

And so I think that commitment piece. Especially, when you have high functioning anxiety, your head just swirls with ideas, like the overthinking is insane. And so I'm like, all right, you got to pluck one of those out of your brain and just try it, let it be an experiment.

Nancy: It's hardest part.

Giving yourself that permission.

Beryl: I know. I say it like it's so easy. Let it be an experiment. Yeah. Easier said than done. So it's curiosity, commitment, and then connection. How are you going to connect to that idea? Because you can't get to a place of being consistent until you figure out how you're going to connect it.

Yeah. So I'm sure for you writing your book, it was like, do you need a specific place to write your book? I know when I've written my online courses, I had the one coffee shop where it was like a ritual. What was my ritual? I would go to the coffee shop when my daughter was napping and I would write there, and that turned into a habit that I could do consistently.

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, that brings the methodology full circle. Those are the four c’s that we go over

Nancy: So curiosity, commitment, connection. Consistency. Nice. I like that because it was funny that the commitment piece and the experiment piece, I wanted to say I always trying to find the perfect, even though I say there is no perfect system, I'm still trying to find the perfect organizational system constantly.

It's like my personal quest. And finally somebody said to me, pick one and stick to it. Pick one instructor for a year. And I was like, whoa, like that seemed, that's a big commitment. And so I decided to pick one in, but what it opened up my mind to was like, there is no right answer here. All there. It's not like I'm constantly afraid to pick one.

Because I might pick the wrong one. That's what I get stuck in. But then I'm like, you will know what's the wrong one until you. Commit to it and do it for a while. Yeah. So I gave myself, so I picked, I was, I picked us to do paper and I gave myself six months, and then I, and I've been tweaking it as I go.

And, it's been hit or miss, but the, that was the first time when somebody said to me that's why, like how you have commitment and it's an experiment that I can say, okay, every day I'm going to show up and, photograph blah. But that's my commitment and it doesn't matter if there's no right way.

Beryl: I have this story from our mom tography community when I started teaching and there's a lot floating around and photography spaces of do a 365 project, which is taking a photo a day for a tire year or do a project 52, or here are these photo prompts for the month that you should photograph.

I didn't want to do those in my head. For a very long time, like it just made my skin crawl and I started to ask myself why it was totally because of my high functioning anxiety. I would start a 365 project and then I'd miss a day and I beat myself up for missing a day. How am I going to make this day up?

How can this project still be perfect? It's not perfect anymore. So I finally, then actually my husband got in on it. He's if you can't do it, I'll do it. So he did a 365 project when our daughter was a year old and he actually finished, he did all 365 days with his phone. Look, I did it. I'm like great.

Nancy: And he didn't miss a day. He did it perfectly.

Beryl: He probably, he doesn't, he has other stuff, but he doesn't have necessarily high functioning anxiety. He falls under another flavor of anxiety. But he probably missed the day, but didn’t care. He just took a picture the next morning or made up for it and didn't beat himself up over it.

But I finally finished one. I was trying to do it like my big fancy professional DSLR camera. I decided to do one with my phone because my phone was always with me. The pressure was taken off immensely. Oh, I can take imperfect photos and still finish this. But like any photo project always felt very constrictive to me.

I don't even know if that's a word constricting. Just because I was like, oh, like it triggered all of them. Perfectionistic piece. Now I have to do this and I'm going to fail if I don't do it the right way. But we have noticed that like our community does need motivation. I've let go of some of my like, oh, I hate photo projects. They're terrible. We do them more now. At momtographer, but we also share, because we have a lot of creatives have high-functioning anxiety, even if they don't know, they have it I'm sure that they exist and would self-identify. And we've shown other ways to embrace photo projects, which is choose a subject you're interested in and see how many different ways you can photograph that subject.

Maybe like you set the parameters, are you going to do it daily? Are you going to do it weekly and do it until it doesn't feel that anymore? And then switch to something else?. I took 30 days. Photos, 30 ish days of photos of like my morning cup of coffee. I called it the, my daily cup project and I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with these, it was fun.

Because I would collect mugs from different places or I'd take photos while I was traveling and eating or drinking a cup of coffee at a restaurant. I took a picture of my smoothie one day, because I didn't have coffee and I did it until I was like, okay, I'm done. Like this doesn't feel inspiring anymore.

I'm not curious about this anymore. And I got to be in control and call the shots around the project.

Nancy: Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, there's a woman. I follow on Instagram for no reason. But every morning she does a story about her coffee, about the French press. And it's just her doing the French press and pouring the coffee and I watch it every morning.

And she said that she gets so many comments from people that are just like, I enjoy seeing this ritual. And so like when you said that about the coffee, like that's just a cool. Ritual. Yeah. Until it's not. And then you stopped doing it.

Beryl: And I did that, the project when my daughter got older. Because I realized like the things that inspired me about photography in the beginning and becoming a mom and the changes of like your child in those first many years of their upbringing, I was like, oh, there's no more firsts.

And she's at school all day. What am I photographing now? And so I needed to find something just to keep me inspired and motivated to shoot. And that was how that project came to be. It was through that coaching process of what am I curious about right now?

Nancy: And is that just, was that just on your phone or was that with the camera?

Beryl: It was probably a little bit of. Okay. Yeah, I think I just allowed it to be what it needed to be. I know when I was traveling, I didn't really take my big camera with me but I'm sure some days at home, I took photos with the DSLR also.

Nancy: Yeah, that's cool. What so here's a weird question for you because I know you do photography, but one of my big things, that one reason I'm not more creative or do creative projects is because my Monger will tell me it's impractical. What are we going to do with that? Where are we going to put it? Ooh, that's a big one. And so it is, I know for photography that isn't, but I'm just curious your take on

Beryl: Our moms struggle with that too. And I think I struggled with that personally because do, I say that to myself sometimes too.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to pick up my camera today because. Yeah. What is this? What's the purpose?

Nancy: Yeah.

Beryl: We talk a lot about setting an intention for your photography or for your creativity in our community. And that intention can be as big. I want to get good at taking pictures because I want to be able to take my baby's newborn photo and hang it up on a big canvas on my wall.

That was my like initial big personal goal. I want to have a baby. I want to take that photo of myself and I want to not have to hire a newborn photographer essentially. And the moms that are really like interested in photography, that's a lot of their main motivation in the beginning, but that motivation can also be, I just want this snapshot so I can send it to the ground.

Or, and I think that intention becomes very important. I want to take these photos today because I know I feel good and I feel creative and I feel like I've unlocked something bigger inside of me when I do it. And sometimes we will. Give our students, the guidance of go on a photo walk today, take whatever camera you want to take, whatever pictures inspire you and then come home and delete them.

Like the magic of digital photography is that you don't have to do anything right. You haven't wasted any money on film. So there doesn't have to be a purpose. And I see a lot of parents especially struggle with that. Because, the magic of digital photography is that we can take photos upon photos, but then you have 30,000 photos sitting on your phone or on your computer.

And it's what do I do with these? I resisted it. Printing photo books for a long time because of my mom, they're going you have to do this perfectly. You have to use all the photos. How are you going to use them? I didn't have the struggles. Some of our community will come forward and say, I don't even want to open this folder because how can I delete photos of my kids.

Nancy: OH, wow. Yeah.

Beryl: There's a lot of guilt and anxiety and throwing photos away. And we've tried to take on the Marie Kondo methodology of photo spark. Do you really need, do you really need 15 photos of your child making similar poses? No. Like it's okay to delete those, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that there's like a right answer, but I know that setting a personal intention helps.

Nancy: Yeah. That makes sense. Because I think you, because that's what my husband will say. We don't need another painting hanging on the wall.

That's just crappy. My office is covered with paintings that he's done. That I just think are amazing. Because I think just doing the creativity is amazing. But I, but the intention, and when I think about me sitting there doing that painting that I loved when we took that class, then I can tap into that intention oh, that was worth it.

Beryl: It's funny that you say that because I don't go to a lot of the paints. Because I'm like, where am I going to put this thing? Once I paint it, I have no idea where it will go. But there is something about the practice and the act of doing it too. And how that's yeah. And how you feel when you go do it.

Nancy: I think it expands. It's a bypass. The creativity is a bypass around all of that perfectionism and people pleasing. Like when you can get into the zone of, concentrating on taking a photo, that's interesting to you for no other reason, then that's just bypass it. It's training your brain to do it differently than it has to be perfect.

And, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that crap that the monger spews forth. Totally. Which is yeah. Which is awesome. Ah, this has been so cool. Thank you so much.

Beryl: I feel like you, and I could just keep going and go. I know for hours, we won't make your listeners that

Nancy: no, but I, because I just feel like we just dabbled and hit a lot of topics that I have not hit yet on the podcast, as far as parenting and the generational stuff. And then also just tapping into that creativity, which I think is such an important part, but it is helpful to talk to someone who knows how hard that is to do and who is still figuring out ways to do it.

Tell me how people can find you and what you're working on over.

Beryl: Totally. Can I issue a challenge to your listeners? That'd be fun. Okay. So we have a project it's our signature project at momtography, it's called the a hundred steps project. And this project stemmed out of my own like perfectionism and lack of motivation to go photograph.

And I was like, all right, I can get up off my couch. I can take a hundred steps. And I can find joy and appreciation and like right now and shift my perspective. And so I tell our community, go stand at your front door or wherever you can pick a starting point wherever you want it to be walk a hundred steps, find a way to make a photograph in the place that you're standing.

Wow. Yeah, because it, you have that like, all right, I have the guidelines, it's a hundred steps, to do that. But I think it also forces you to think creatively and to get out of your head and you don't have to do anything with that photo besides just we would love to see it. So if you go find us on Instagram, it's momtography CEO.

That's how you can follow me on Instagram when you can tag me and hashtag momtography and then our website is momtography.club.

Nancy: Awesome. I really like that. Because like you said, it has rules. And a challenge. Like it's a mix of both.

Beryl: Yeah. So hopefully it'll help some of your listeners go for your listeners that are moms.

It's really fun to do with your kids too. If you can get them to go with you. Oh yeah.

Nancy: That's a great idea. I love that. Thank you for just that. I'm going to do that. When we hang up on my way down to get the laundry, I'm going my steps and see where I left

Beryl: it.

Nancy: Awesome. Okay. We will link to it, that stuff in the show notes, we're also going to link to the book that you mentioned about the ADHD that changed everything for you. And thank you for taking the time to do this. Thanks for having me.

For the record, I did practice the 100 hundred step challenge and have practiced it multiple times since so often I hear these challenges, but I never put them into practice, but I did.

As soon as I hung up from our interview, I tried it and I've done it a few times when I've been stuck or feeling particularly Mongery, it's a fun way to get out of your head. See the world differently. I challenge you to try it.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 133: The Value of Self-Loyalty

In today’s episode, I talk about how to get off that hamster wheel of stress and build more self-loyalty in your life.

Devoted, constant, and committed – all my clients would list loyalty as one of their highest values—

loyalty to their mothers, fathers, spouses, kids, friends, work, and the world in general.

They are the listeners, supporters, lovers, givers, cheerleaders, and fans. They are the caregivers for their aging parents. They are the backbone of their families, relationships, and workplaces.

The dark side of this loyalty to others is the exhaustion, the never-ending to-do list, the never feeling good enough, whole enough, satisfied enough. 

The anxiety.

All this month, we are exploring the unique values of someone with High Functioning Anxiety and how they silently struggle with these values. 

Last week we talked with Brittany Berger about anxiety and productivity. This week I am talking about how those of us with HFA value loyalty.  

Here is the irony: some of the kindest, gentlest, giving people in the world never quite feel kind, gentle, or giving enough.

Want to know why?

They are so busy devoting themselves to make sure their family and friends are heard, supported, and cared for they bypass themselves.

They have been trained to care for everyone else but themselves. 

This is something I have struggled with personally. I love caring for people. I pride myself on my loyalty, I love being there for those closest to me, and I know it has come at a price—a price of exhaustion and stress. 

Today I want to talk about how to get off that hamster wheel of stress.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When we don't have loyalty to ourselves we are constantly looking outside of ourselves for direction.

• How the Monger lies to us by saying “take care of everyone else and then you will have peace.”

• How we can stretch our loyalty to include ourselves and not just others.

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

A pair of Zen monks, a master, and his student went out on a journey to visit another convent. As monks do, they walked much and spoke little. On the third day of their journey, the two came to a fast-flowing river and saw that there was a young woman standing there in a beautiful dress. She stood there looking very cross and impatient.

The student noticed the woman said nothing and walked. "Please," she begged the Master, who was clearly the one in charge. "Would you carry me across this river? I'm on my way to my loved one, and I don't want to ruin this dress. It's the best one I have." The student was shocked at her audacity, after all, his Master was a holy man, and her touch would be unclean, but before he could say anything and to his surprise, his Master agreed to carry the woman.

The Master quickly picked her up, put her on his back, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other side. She didn't thank the old monk, she just shoved him out of the way. And the two monks continued to walk in silence day after day until finally, on the third day, the student could no longer hold his tongue master.

He said, "Why did you carry that woman across the river?" His Master looked at him with a slight smile and said, "You have learned much, but you still lack some wisdom. My student, that woman weighed on my back for three minutes and then I was done. But she has been weighing on your mind for three days."

You're listening to the Happier Approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Usually, the lesson of the story is you need to put it down, stop worrying, let it go. Mind your business.

We walk away from the story thinking, yes, I should let it go. This is one of those stories we hear all the time that makes us think and pause and beat ourselves up because we know we are the student monk. We tell ourselves we need to do a differently, stop ruminating and let things go. Oh, yes. If only it were that easy.

When I hear this story, I'm curious about the older monk, why did he choose to pick up the woman and why was he able to let her anger and unappreciation go so easily. Why was he able to let it go? This month, we're exploring the unique values as someone with high functioning anxiety. Last week, we talked with Brittany Berger about the value of productivity.

And this week I'm talking about the value of loyalty. Loyalty means devoted, constant, and committed. Almost all of my clients put loyalty as a value. Loyal to a fault, one could say loyalty to their mothers, fathers, spouses, kids, friends, work, and the world. They are the caregivers for their aging parents.

They're the listener supporters, lovers, givers, cheerleaders fans, head down, get the job done, workers. They are the backbone of their families, relationships, and workplace. They ooze loyalty to everyone around them. They're strong, quiet kind. Get the job done. Individuals. The dark side of this loyalty, the shadow side of this devotion to others, is the exhaustion.

The never-ending to-do list, the never feeling good, whole enough, satisfied enough. The anxiety there, and the Monger runs the show. She is loud and proud, telling them all the ways they miss the target. All the ways they should have been more loyal, more kind, more giving it is ironic. Here's some of the kindest gentlest giving people in the world, and yet they never quite feel kind enough gentle enough or giving enough, want to know why?

Loyalty to self. They're so busy devoting themselves to make sure their family and friends are heard, supported, and cared for they bypass themselves. They've been trained to care for everyone else, but themselves. And when they reach their forties and fifties and their kids are older and need less care and their parents are older and need more care. They see that there is no break. There is no time for me coming down the line.

There has to be a different way because they take care of everyone else, Kool-Aid it isn't working anymore. This is something I have struggled with personally. I love caring for people. I pride myself on my loyalty.

I love being there for those closest to me. And I know it has come at a price, a price of exhaustion and stress, a constant feeling like I'm on a hamster wheel, just one rotation away from people. When we don't have loyalty to ourselves, we're constantly looking outside of ourselves for direction. We check in with everyone else to the detriment of ourselves.

We listen to the Monger, lie of, take care of everyone else, and then you'll have peace. So going back to the story of the monks who is more loyal, the Master or the student on one hand, you can say the young monk, he's more loyal. He's loyal to his oath, recognizing to touch a woman goes against his oath.

He's loyal to his teacher, loyal to a fault. One might say, he's so loyal he's fighting the fight for his Master. He's spinning out and full of negativity out of a sense of right and wrong, but also a sense of loyalty. It has been established that the student is overstepping, but it is not only because he is a silly, negative, busy body.

It is because his loyalty is out of bounds. He has too much loyalty to others. Now let's answer the question of who's more loyal and say, it's the older monk. The older monk is loyal to the woman. He risks his vows to help her. And she is super unappreciative. He's loyal to others and gets nothing for it.

But you know what he does have loyalty to? Himself. And that is why he doesn't get caught up in the spinning and negativity. He trusts that he wanted to help the woman no matter what, not because it was the right thing to do. Not because she would fall all over him with adoration, but because he saw a person who needed help and he decided to help her, he was loyal to his values and principles.

So he didn't need the adoration and appreciation from the lady. He could let it go because he was making the decision from his own inner loyalty. The tagline for my business is to be as loyal to yourself as you are to others because building self-loyalty decreases anxiety. When I trust my values and principles and make decisions from that place, the self-doubt rumination and hustling step aside because I'm loyal to myself.

We spend so much of our time being the student, looking to others for answers, the vows say we can't touch women, living in black and white thinking, when helped people should be appreciative. We forget to practice the gift of the older monk discernment to check in with ourselves and ask, what do I want here?

What is most important to me? What was most important to the older monk was helping a woman in distress. Period. So it didn't matter what her response was or that he was going against his will. He could respond to this particular situation and make a decision for himself.

In working with my clients via Voxer, they check in with me a couple of times a week via the app. Frequently they're calling to talk about their anxiety, and inevitably they will ask, is this okay? Am I doing it right? What do you think I should be doing? My role is to discern when they need to hear. Yes, that is right. And when they need to hear well, what do you think? What is your self loyalty meter saying? For some of my clients, this is the first time they've ever asked themselves, what do I think? They've spent their time always looking outside of themselves because of all those people they're loyal to they know so much better.

So, yes, we need to stop ruminating, spinning out obsessing and over-performing, but underneath all that anxiety is a need for self loyalty and need to turn that strong value of loyalty back to ourselves.

The good thing is we know how to be loyal. We're great at being loyal. Now it's about stretching that loyalty to include ourselves and not just others.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 132: Working Brighter In The Hustle Culture

In today’s episode, I am talking with Brittany Berger, the founder of Work Brighter, a digital media company. Brittany has raised a one-woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction to it.

Let me check Instagram one more time. 

Go Go Go is addicting. 

During this social distancing time, I keep hearing people say that we can finally stop hustling and use this time to get in touch with ourselves. The problem with that thinking is it implies that hustling is something that was forced upon us. 

But in reality, hustling is something we choose to do as a coping mechanism against our uncomfortable feelings of sadness, grief, anger, doubt, and uncertainty. 

For those of us with High Functioning Anxiety, these mechanisms can lead to even greater levels of anxiety. We all rail against hustle culture while at the same time actively embracing it. This coping mechanism has become a valued cultural norm to the point where we even glorifying it. 

So what would it be like to stop embracing the hustle culture altogether?

My guest today has raised a one-woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction to it. Brittany Berger is the founder of Work Brighter, a digital media company that helps productive unicorns go beyond working smarter to a version of productivity that makes room for “unproductive” things like rest, self-care, and fun. 

She started Work Brighter after 5 years running content marketing in high-stress startups that prioritized hustle, growth, and scaling over self-care and mental health. Now that she’s changed her own mindset, she spends her time helping other high achievers define balance for themselves, advocating for mental health awareness, and dancing...always dancing.

That Brittany walks her talk, which is one reason this interview is so amazing. She believed the hustle culture lie with all of her being and shares not only her burnout story but what she has created and the values she lives by now. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Brittany’s transformational story of burnout with all the nitty-gritty details

• What self-care really looks like

• Why it is so hard to unhook that belief that we can rest only when we have earned it

• Practical tips for when your to-do list is 500 things long and your boss is breathing down your throat

• How to get out of the cycle of pushing during the week and collapsing on the weekend

Resources mentioned:

• Work Brighter

• Instagram @workbrighter

• Twitter @workbrighterco

• Book recommendation: Rest: Why you Get More Done When you Work Less

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Brittany: Working smarter and the traditional world of productivity and hustle culture. It was all very black and white and life is not black and white. And so we needed to work brighter instead,

Nancy: Go go go is addicting. During the social distancing time the one thing I keep hearing is we can finally stop hustling and get in touch with ourselves.

The problem with that thinking is it implies that hustling is something that is forced upon you. But in reality, hustling is something we choose to do as a coping mechanism against our own uncomfortable feelings, sadness, grief, anger, doubt, uncertainty. For those of us, with high functioning anxiety, those feelings can lead to anxiety.

So we hustle in order to deal with our anxiety and feel more comfortable. And this coping mechanism that we all do has become a valued cultural norm. We all rail against hustle culture while at the same time actively embracing it? No, I would actually say it's more accurate to say glorifying it. So what would it be like to stop glorifying it all together?

And that is what my guest has done. Brittany Berger has raised a one woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction.

Your listing to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Brittany Berger is the founder of work, brighter.co a digital media company that helps productive unicorns go beyond working smarter to a version of productivity that makes room for unproductive things like rest self-care and fun. Brittany started work brighter after five years running content marketing in high stress startups that prioritized hustle growth and scaling over self care and mental health.

Now that she's changed her own mindset. She spends her time helping other high achievers define balance for themselves. Advocating for mental health awareness and dancing, always dancing. Brittany walks her talk, which is one reason this interview is so amazing. She believed the hustle culture lie with all of her being and shares, not only her burnout story, but what she has created and the values she lives by now.

Brittany and I talk about her story of burn out Not just the transformational story, but the nitty-gritty details. What self care really means why it is so hard to unhook that belief that we can rest only when we've earned it. Practical tips for when your to-do list is 500 things long, and your boss is breathing down your throat and how to get out of the push during the week collapse during the weekend cycle.

Brittany. I am so excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

Brittany Thanks for having me.

Nancy: I'm really intrigued to hear your story. And so we're just going to jump right into that. So tell me about the day you realized you were burnt out.

Brittany: Oh, wow. I guess it was less of a day and more a slow burn where it was months of other people telling me I was burnt out and it took a while for me to believe them.

But I think it was a period from like November, 2016 to March, 2017. And I had been going through burnout for a while all of my chronic illnesses were flaring because of it. And I was hospitalized while I was away at a business trip in November because of the combination of just everything.

And it was, I was supposed to be at a conference, so I missed the whole conference and was in the hospital instead. And I was alone in a strange city. And so that was like a little bit of a wake up call for me that I was doing too much. I didn't really know what to do about it. But then by March, I realized that a big reason that I was so burnt out was because of how much I was working.

And I kept trying to work through the burnout. And by March I decided that cannot work. And I decided that I would leave my full-time job and take a little bit of what I call a Self care sabbatical and take some time just focusing on getting healthy and letting my business's passive income stuff, like happened in the background.

And then when I felt better, I went back to the business.

Nancy: So the hospital thing that was in November, and then you say it was another five months before you actually had the real, come to Jesus. Have I got to make some changes.

Brittany: Yeah, I did not figure it out quickly. I was so stubborn and I think a big part of it was my family had started to really get concerned.

There was a weekend around March where my sister came up and came up to visit from where she lived and she just got real with me about how much my health was scaring my parents. And so I just really started realizing that it wasn't just me, that the burnout was impacting. And I think it was it says a lot about my mindset at the time that doing it for myself, wasn't enough to make me actually do it.

But realizing that my, my partner, my parents, my sister, it was impacting them a lot too. I was like, all right, I shouldn’t do this to them either.

Nancy: So if someone's listening and they're they are interested like, oh wait, I think I might be where you were in that November to March period. What were some of the symptoms, what was going on in your head, as you were trying to push through, what were you telling yourself?

Brittany: I was just constantly telling myself that I wasn't doing enough and that despite how I felt and how broken and exhausted I was I couldn't rest until I finished. So I really looked at rest and just taking time away from my business and earning a break. I looked at it as something that had to be like earned and I couldn't succeed until I did that, but then I kept changing the bar for success.

And so it just never happened.

Nancy: Okay, so you recognized this is too much and then, or I'm burnout, but then it was kind of like, but once I get there, wherever there is, then I can stop and it'll be okay.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I, at the time I was working full time and I had both a blog with an email, with a course, with a paid course, as well as a freelance writing business.

So I essentially had a day job and two sides on top of the chronic illness. And so I just, I was telling myself that I needed to make enough money to pay all these medical expenses of dealing with burnout. And so I kept telling myself that, once I make this much money, I will work less hard, but then.

Working that hard would put me in the hospital and I would get another medical bill. And so then the amount of money that I needed to get up this endless cycle. And in between November and March, I also realized I would need so much less money that this thing that I'm working towards, if I just. I stopped for a while, but the reason I was so sick and had all these medical bills was because of how much I was working.

And so I realized that they were feeding into each other.

Nancy: So the burnout was causing the chronic illnesses to flare more.

Brittany: Exactly. Exactly. I like I have had inflammatory bowel disease, my whole life. And it had never been like a huge problem, except for a month at a time, it had never been a two year long problem before, but because I was never letting myself rest, it never went away.

Nancy: Yeah. It constantly fascinates me how our bodies give us signals and we just ignore them..

Brittany: Yeah Oh, I have a very long history of that. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. me too! It's sad to say that it's a skill because not a good skill, but

Brittany: yeah, it all comes down. I think we've all heard that phrase pain is weakness, leaving the body.

I think that phrase is really damaging. Like I grew up as a dancer and we heard that a lot and I really internalized it. And then eventually dancing on an ankle with two completely torn ligaments. My foot was literally connected to my leg by a thread. And I was ignoring the pain because I was saying that it would make me stronger and that it was weakness leaving my body.

That's so messed up. Yeah.

Nancy: our ego gets in the way, or we get addicted to the push, to the hustle, to the pain

Brittany: Like something to be glorified. It is a sign from our bodies.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So one phrase you have self care is my side hustle. I love that. And, self care gets so bastardized in our world. Tell me about what your definition of self-care is. What does that look like to you?

Brittany: To me, it is very non-commercial. It is not the stuff that you go out and do. It's not pampering. I like to look at self-care as kind of self-maintenance and really, yeah. Parenting and self parenting is another phrase that I've heard.

And I really liked that. And just honestly, like healthy adulting. But for me, I, when I was really in to hustle culture, I was doing nothing but working. And so for me, when I first started focusing on self-care it was things like eating breakfast. It was things like taking my meds every day. It was getting, oh God at the time, five to six hours of sleep, because I wasn't even getting that much before then.

Yeah, I was living for a while off of four hours a night. I would take a nap because I can't live off 4 hours at night, but yeah. Sleeping four hours a night. And yeah, I've doubled that, which is amazing. Yeah, it was stuff like, going to bed earlier, taking my meds, eating breakfast, eating lunch.

Really like when I was at my full-time job, the only real meal or the only, or when I was in hustle culture, despite my employment situation, the only meal I ate was dinner because I would wake up and I would work until I was exhausted and then I would eat. Yeah, so I literally used to have calendar appointments set for meals, otherwise I would forget.

So it was really just that basic stuff. Going to therapy, going to my doctor's appointments. These days, it is more I've had the basics covered. And so it also includes things like journaling and going for walks and intentional TV time where I really focus on finding something that's going to improve my mood.

So I go to bed happy and not stressed out. And yeah, for me, it's just all of those little things that you can do to maintain your mood and self care level. And it's all that kind of stuff that when you're really in the cult of toxic productivity as I like to call it where you're just defining everything by work.

It's all stuff that you attempt to really ignore. And when I first was trying to change my mindset, I recognized the fact that I didn't see a ton of value in those things. And but I did see value in hustling. And so I said that's what my hustle is going to be. Self care is going to be my side hustle.

And so that was and I also had, I still, when I left my full-time job, I had some mindset issues around taking time off and essentially taking a sabbatical. And so it was a jokey way to say oh, now my full-time job is my business, but since I'm not the kind of person that can just have one job self-care is my side.

So it was, but then also it is a testament to how seriously I took it. Because side hustles are jobs and I started treating self care like a job.

Nancy: Yeah, I like that because, so one of the issues a lot of my clients have, I had a retreat last year and we were talking in the retreat about, they know there are things that they like to do that makes them start their day off.

Like journaling would be one of them. They know that helps, but it's they feel like they have to earn it or they're don't deserve it. Or, getting over the hump of getting up every morning and journaling rather than jumping into email or taking care of the kids or whatever is hard.

How did you flip that I need to earn it mentality?

Brittany: I really just tried looking at the bigger picture and I tried connecting all of the dots. So for example, one thing that made me. Really fall in love with journaling was how much easier my work felt when I was doing brain dumps of everything on my mind and getting all of the work stuff in my head out of my head.

And so I realized that could help. Another thing was like getting more sleep. I realized that I actually like. Faster and better as a writer when I get more sleep. And so I realized that it's all connected. It's not, I like to say self care, isn't something to be earned once you succeed.

It's part of the process for success. It's not like you work then. The rest is part of the work. One book that I really love and that really helped change my mindset was called Rest. Why you get more done when you work less? And it really looked at like the neuroscience of what happens to our brains when we're.

Working like four hours a day, which is the sweet spot. The author recommended of deep focused work, four hours of that versus eight hours. And it was just, it's really eye opening and like the importance of sleep and how that actually impacts your work. I really started seeing. It was part of the process and not the reward.

Nancy: Okay. I like the idea, the pulling back. So you can flop your brain to be like, this is helping me work better, which is the goal. And turning the whole thought process on its head. Yeah. In so many ways that's really what do you do when your to-do list is 50,000 things long, and you're not working for yourself. So you're working for a boss and you haven't, you're in an organization and you're just overwhelmed by, there's, there's no way you're going to get that list done.

Brittany: Prioritization and communication.

Okay. I was super bad at this at my first job. And in that job, I eventually got a new manager who recognized my overwhelm and she taught me a phrase that's really great. And she was like, you need to say this to me sometimes. It is like when someone is asking you to do something like someone, your colleague or your boss, it's just basically stating what your current priorities are and saying okay, sure I can do that. But then what should I take off my plate to make room for it?

And so it's not, rejecting so it's not like saying to a colleague, no, I can't do that. It's saying help me figure out how I can do that. Because one thing that also took me a little bit too long to realize is that like coworkers, we don't want each other overwhelmed and like your boss it's okay.

If you can't do everything your boss is throwing at you. They might not realize that they're throwing too much at you. And that was the case with me and my manager and I didn't realize that I could say no or not know, but that I could say let's talk this out. Or like how I didn't realize that because I assumed that my boss has everything perfect and figured out, but that's not the case.

None of us have everything figured out. And so she, she didn't realize that she was giving me too much. And. Saying Hey, this is difficult. Like saying sure, I could do this thing for you this morning, but you already said you wanted me to do this thing this morning. Which do you want more just making other people more aware of what's going on? Because a lot of times. I think when we're really overwhelmed, we assume none of our coworkers can help.

Because they're all overwhelmed too. And that might be the case, but we're still all, we all want to help each other. And a lot of times it's easier than we thought. For example, continuing the boss example, like maybe she did give you two things to do this morning, but that's just because she thought they'd be easy.

And when she really thinks about it, neither need to get done right now. And yeah, just open communication as much as possible. Some bosses aren't ideal and some, cultures, unfortunately, you can't be super open and honest about that stuff, but just be as open and honest about it as you can be in your situation and yeah.

Ruthless prioritization when it comes down. Yeah.

Nancy: Because that's also then, it's back to that piece of, I need to be honest with myself, this is too much, instead of being aware of when you're amping up into the hustle culture versus when you're being authentic.

Yeah. So speaking of that, tell me, I think I know what the hostile culture is, but just for the listeners, what is your definition of hustle culture?

Brittany: I tend to define. I'm actually working on like a definitive definition for my brand right now, but it's some of the key qualities I like to point out are work for the sake of work and just taking on as much as possible.

The, for the hell of it. When you're taking it off work that serves no real purpose, that's not, in pursuit of a goal you actually care about. So there's that quote, I forget who says it, but that I love but growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer. Oh, my gosh.

Nancy: That's

Brittany: awesome.

Yeah. Like a scientist. I think that said it. But it's just such a great mindset to approach work with. Because we are just taught to accumulate stuff, success, accolades money. But how much of it do we need? That's going to be a different amount for everyone, but like knowing you're enough amount.

I think that's part of the book essentially. Is like defining your enough. I really love that because yeah, it lets you figure out how much you ha what enough work is, what enough money is that you need in your life? What accolades and yeah. Milestones you really want. And so that's one quality.

Another quality is treating rest and hobbies and fun as something that you need to earn instead of something that you've deserved and that, and really something that helps you work like I've already said, rest is work and it helps you get your job done. But like play is to, I can't tell you how many great ideas I have come from.

I have had from watching TV or going to a dance class. Actually when I used to go to my dance classes, I would come out so full of inspiration that I would go for a walk around the studio neighborhood with my with a voice memo and just brain dump the, all the ideas out of my head, because I was so full of inspiration about work from that one hour dance.

And yeah. And so rest is part of the process of success. Play is part of the process. Yeah. We're not machines. We can't just work all the time.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that about the cancer cell. That's really cool. Because that's a great visual to think, like why am I pushing so hard for, because I think so many times we start pushing just for the sake of pushing.

Like we don't even know what we're doing this for

Brittany: exactly, because we've just. Unintentionally opted into a contest of who can work the most

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Because something, I work a lot with my clients on is stopping the phrase I deserve. Because they'll say I deserve this vacation and I'm like, no you need the vacation.

Brittany: I do use the phrase I deserve, but as a human being, not as like you've earned it, but as human. Deserve all of these things, no matter what exactly.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. It's but it's that idea of, I get it because I've worked so hard is just not helpful.

Yeah. Okay. So here's, this is a personal question well personal for me. So one of my issues. Is, and I work with this with my clients too, but is that is I notice I get trapped in the cycle of I'll push really hard all week and then I'll crash on the weekend.

So I'll push really hard all week. And then on Friday, which is my day off, I'll spend the day like doing Netflix and playing on my video games. And it's not that intentional TV watching, as you talked about and. How do you know?, and I know I got into that habit. I noticed I got into the habit and I'm trying to break out of it.

But a lot of times I asked myself, how do I know if I'm wasting time or if I'm just being lazy or avoiding stuff.

Brittany: I think it's really just a matter of holding yourself aware. Yeah. I talk a lot about energy management. And for me, that helps because if I'm low on energy, then I need to do something to recharge my energy.

If I'm feeling energetic and I just am in the mood and I am feeling the pull to the Netflix remote anyway, but Check in with my energy and I'm like, oh, I could actually get up and do a jumping Jack right now. Then, oh, that might just be procrastination. And I might not actually need a 22 minute sit-com break.

Okay. So it's really, I think self-awareness and especially around your energy and your to-do lists for example, also, , if I am like feeling distracted or like I deserve a break or I need a break and I know. Also the one thing left on my to-do list for the day is something I don't want to do then.

Yeah. (laughter)

Nancy: Yeah. I can relate to that (laughter)

Brittany: that. Yeah. Very situational

Nancy: . Yeah, because the idea of like needing. Needing to be lazy. And I say that term lazy in the sense of open space, like having time to do a dance class or not necessarily being lazy, like laying on the couch in my pajamas, but just having time is something that I don't give myself very often.

Yeah. And I think that is unless I'm just totally exhausted and then I'm not taking advantage of it. Then you're just regrouping all the time.

Brittany: Yeah. I think another thing that helps is trying to focus on the big picture and instead of just the next week, because if I know I need to work again next week, then I'm going to be less likely to work myself to the bone this week. And so I know if I'm, if I have to work every week for the next 52 weeks I need to sustain myself. So I definitely, I look at sustainability. So I can't, I wish I remember who said this, but it was just a tweet. But it was. Every percent that you put in past 100% today is alone from your future self.

Oh, that's. Yeah. And so if I put in 150% this week, that means I can only do 50% next week. And so instead I look at it as I'm going to do my 100% this week. I'm going to use. Extra time. And instead of, I don't know, just scrolling Instagram, I am going to open the Kindle app on my phone.

One thing that I did amazingly last year was that I switched those two icons on my home screen and Instagram, and just the change that automatically happened was wild. But yeah, so I just look at it as I only have 150% this week, unless I am going to borrow from the future.

Nancy: Okay. That's a cool way of looking at it.

How long? So if you say like November of 2017 or March of 2017, you had your come to Jesus. How long did it take you to really unhook all that? I know you're still unhooking. It's an ongoing process, but until you started really seeing some.

Brittany: I would say maybe in the next like six to eight, 12 months is when I really changed a lot in my life.

So I had that realization that I needed to leave my job in, or that I needed to delete my full-time job in March since I had others. And I left in June. And I would say the first, definitely the first, at least six months of my, of I'm not working full time in house. I still very much had the same hustle, culture mindset, and I was working less and stuff like that, but I wasn't, it wasn't super okay with it and stuff like that.

And so I would say it took a lot and I was in therapy that time. I did a lot of journaling that time. And I also just started as I started seeing the results of working less, it started to become easier to believe because I could feel the results for myself

Nancy: and what were those results?

Brittany: So much more energy, so much more fun.

Like as an entrepreneur, it feels so weird to care so little about so many things I'm supposed to care about now, but I know that my business is serving me and I just feel so aligned and happy. I have a post on my blog. That's five signs the mindset work is working and it's just things I've noticed from the past year.

Like I used to walk around my house, singing all the time and then I don't really know when, but like I stopped singing. But I've started singing again like singing in the shower. I've started doing that again and it's such a little thing, but that's something that I now realize, like I had, I just, I had taken, I zapped the joy out of my life and somewhere I've gotten it back and I'm like singing and I'm dancing around the apartment, not just in class.

And I smile sometimes for no one reason and stuff like that. And it's just all this stuff. That's. Like it was so absent for so long.

Nancy: Yeah. Which I think that happens to a lot of us that we forget those things just disappear one by one little by little.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I hadn't even realized that I stopped singing or that I started again.

Until my fiancé mentioned something about how I think he thought that I stopped because we moved to New York and we just have smaller quarters and thinner walls or something. Because I used to walk around our big apartment. The concrete walls and stuff just like belting out in my horrible voice.

And so I think he thought that I stopped, like out of out of courtesy or something, but no, I was just depressed.

Nancy: Yeah. Thank God for partners, man. Because my husband will frequently point out to me. Like you don't laugh anymore. What happened to the laughter? and it's like oh yeah,

Sometimes we need someone else to point that out to us.

Brittany: Exactly. Yeah. Like exactly him and my sister were really the people in that time. That really convinced me before that March moment.

Nancy: and it's amazing how much convincing it takes. I think. Yeah. Even when the people we love the most and the closest to us are like this isn't okay.

It's harder for our, it just takes a while for us. Have that message sink in. Yep. Okay. So then I want to hear about, you mentioned energy management. Tell me more about that, how that works for you on a daily basis and how it really changed your life.

Brittany: Just totally changed the way I structure my day and they know that I have a leg up with this because I am in total control of my own schedule.

But even when I started doing energy management, when I still worked in house. So to give you a run down of what it used to look like. So, before I started paying attention to energy, I would get to work in the morning. I would immediately jump into writing long form, serious content.

I would just dive right in no warmup, no anything. Basically do that until I couldn't anymore. And then I would do the other stuff, like the admin, the communication, whatnot. I also, I would batch all of my calls on one day a week because that was like a productivity tip I read somewhere and I was very much in the place that we talked about before, where like I would work until Friday or until my day off. And then I would just crash. That was very much the cycle I would crash every night. I would come home from work, take a nap before I could even eat dinner. But then yeah, I was totally zapped.

And the changes that I made when I worked in house was I stopped writing in the mornings because I realized I am not a morning person. And while I can't change the fact that I have to be at work at nine, I don't have to do the hardest work right then I can wait until I've had some caffeine and some lunch and stuff.

So I started doing my admin in the morning. I started doing meetings in the morning because that's stuff that I didn’t need to be at my best for, like when I am, I'm really at my prime in terms of writing at 2:00 PM. And then again at 9:30 PM. And so I started protecting those hours and making sure that I could write during that time, I also stopped batching calls because I'm an introvert.

And so I realized that was burning me out. That it's much easier for me. Yeah. Spread out the calls and so what works now is that I have a, depending on the day, I just have a slot for calls every day and it's like my socializing hours. And so I paced myself and so it's still like time blocked.

It's still the same block of time almost every day. And it's still I know it in advance, so it's still very organized and it brings all of the benefits that batching calls brings, but it doesn't burn out my energy. Zap my will to talk. And another thing that I did was I like I was side hustling and I had always felt the pull to try to wake up early and work on my business in the morning before I went to my day job.

Since that's the common advice. Yeah. But again, energy management. I identified that I was really awake. Like I got really hyper right before I go to bed. And so from 9:30 to 1130, I would make my business hours. And so, I stopped trying to fit that work in before my day job. And then when I got home from work, I wouldn't try to dive into my side hustle right away.

I would wait until my prime hour and sometimes Sleep problems. And so sometimes I would even take a nap after work instead of going to bed earlier so that I could make sure to be awake during the energy hours. And I would still get the same amount of sleep, but I was awake when I knew I was great at writing.

And since that was my main job,

Nancy: because I love in your, before we hit record, I was talking about how much I love your blog. You have to go check out workbrighter.co.

Nancy: She has some amazing blogs and YouTube videos. The whole thing is fabulous.

And I want to talk about your clubhouse here in a little bit, but you take on that idea of the 5:00 AM, whatever they have a name for it, that everyone feels like this is what

Brittany: the 5 AM club, the miracle morning and all of that stuff.

Nancy: Yeah. Which was so I just love that you took that on because so many clients will say to me, I read that the major executives get up at 5:00 AM and do stuff. And I'm like, not if you're not a 5:00 AM person.

Brittany: Yeah. Oh my God, I'm being targeted with a New York times article right now, like in Facebook ads. And it's how to become a morning person, even if you're not.

And it makes me so angry because I am like, I'm not saying that mornings are bad or we shouldn't be in the mornings. I am saying mornings are bad for me personally. I'm saying if you're a morning person own it. If you're a night owl own it, if you're a night owl, don't try to become a morning person.

And I hate that. I keep getting retargeted with that article. But yeah. I used to not be able to set my own work hours to the extreme. And so how I adapted the energy to that was like, okay, I had to be at work at eight, but I wasn't going to do the hard work then.

And now what that looks is I am going to stay up later and sleep later. Like right now I sleep until 9:30 or 10 most days, because I know that means I can stay up later and work more and it's not yeah, It just feels so much more relaxed this way, but yeah. Instead of trying to become a morning person or a whatever, I'm all about just becoming very comfortable with what you are and owning it and leveraging it.

Nancy: I love that. So the whole thing with energy management is just being really intentional about your personal energy. And not buying into oh, I should be. Or this is what they do.

Brittany: Exactly. I like to call energy management, a filter for all of the other productivity advice out there, because the biggest problem with all of the productivity advice out there, isn't that it’s wrong. It's that it's given as a one size fits all. This always works thing when productivity is so personal. And so energy management kind of gives you a filter to run other tips. For example, the batching calls piece of advice. I can run that through my little energy management filter and say okay, that I can't batch a whole day of calls, but I can do two calls in the same hour on one day or something like that, if that fits into my book.

And so it just helps you figure out which of the hacks and quick tips out there. Will actually work for you to apply them.

Nancy: Yeah. Because a lot of my clients and I'm guilty of this too. I notice whenever, like even yesterday I had something that it's something on my calendar that I don't really want, that I'm struggling with right now.

And and so I'm like, oh, I need to develop a new system. Like what I need a new system. If I had a new system, this wouldn't be so painful. And then they go into this whole thing of looking for a new system. And now I know I don't go down that rabbit hole because I recognize, okay, new system is a red flag.

And that means, you don't want to be doing something, but all the time, my clients will say to me, oh, I just need a new system. And because there's so much freaking advice out there on here's the perfect system, but none of it is saying. Pay attention to your own energy. Like you can find a new system, but it may not work for you.

Yeah.

Brittany: Most of the time you need to improve what you have because you are called to it for a reason and it just needs some optimization.

Nancy: So that continually coming back to yourself and running everything through yourself, which is so hard when people have been focused externally on hustle culture, it's like a whole new way of being.

Brittany: Yeah. It's almost like a self-awareness exercise too. I feel like it makes you a lot more self-aware about the way you work.

Nancy: So right now, what would you say are the self-care things you do that are just like set in stone? These are. Not get non-negotiables. I

Brittany: recently learned how important my sad lamp is.

I live in Manhattan. It is winter. We are on the third floor in a neighborhood of much taller building. So no natural light comes into the apartment. And yeah, I've had this sad lamp for a while and I use it in the winter and. Super great with the routine of it until recently. And then I dropped it and I hadn't noticed that I stopped using it.

It was just like, I was cleaning one day and I moved it to clean off the table and I didn't put it back and that broke the habit. And I didn't realize until I was like, why is my sleep schedule? So off, I was like waking. I was waking up at four, 5:00 AM and then being exhausted by 11:00 AM. I was taking like two naps a day and my body just would not stay asleep no matter what time I went to bed for more than five hours at a time.

So if. If I started planning around waking up at 5:00 AM and going to bed earlier, it would still just wake up after five hours. There was one day that I woke up at 3:00 AM, because I went to bed earlier. And I realized it's because I hadn't been using the lamp. And so I really give it credit for helping regulate my sleep.

And when I'm not getting a lot of sunlight right now. So I recently learned how important that is. Other crucial things are. Journaling. I do so much of it these days in a bullet journal for me, and that's just, I love the bullet journal method. Another habit is therapy. I know it's not accessible for everyone.

But if it is it's so great. One thing that I'm trying to be better about this year is not waiting until I need to. I talk to my therapist to talk to my therapist. Standing weekly talk. And that has been great so far because it's I get proactive about it and I'm like, all right, what can I talk to her about this week instead of just, and so I'm able to treat things before they become, talk to things talk with her about things before they become like dire emergencies, instead of just having the dire emergency.

Nancy: That's very common.

Brittany: Netflix is so important. Like I said, intentional TV time is everything. I totally get that TV can be a big time waste, but it has gotten such a bad reputation and productivity. It's it can be so great. Like I actually, I like to say like natural Pomodoros. So like for example, a lot of times I use a 22, like the modern nowadays.

A 30 minute sitcom block with like commercials taken out is about 22 minutes. That is if you've been working for two to three hours, that is a great sized break and you can turn it off the autoplay on Netflix so that it doesn't automatically go to the next step. That is important. Yeah. It is an important part of this.

You have to turn off the autoplay vivo, but yeah, once you do. Great. It's I just, I like it's become a routine where like I finished up a big chunk of work at my desk. I pick one episode and I break for that long and then I get back to work. And so I kind of work in these cycles of two hours of work, 22 minutes and TV, and it's making sure and not just turning on the TV to whatever channels on yeah.

Actually picking something out that makes me happy. I highly recommend The Good Place or Parks and Rec or Brooklyn Nine Nine or Schitt's Creek.

Nancy: That's awesome. I've even gone back recently and started watching the golden girls. Yeah. Just talk about pull you out of here. Like just love them so much.

It's just, it's such a great and I, because I can remember, I love that you said that about Netflix because it does get such a bad rap. And I can remember years ago I was at a conference with Ilanya, Vanzant she used to be a big guru years ago and she said her favorite thing to do was to come home, take her bra off, lay in the middle of her bed and watch Law and Order

Because there was a beginning, a middle and an end, they always caught the bad guy. It was just like so awesome. And she would just watch it episode of that and just feel great. And I was like, thank you, for sure sharing that it wasn't, that you were sitting in meditating and being Zen, like in the middle of your bed, like you were a human being who is this is how I detress.

And I think that we need to be talking about how to do that intentionally.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I am so intentional with the TV shows I watch too. I do not just turn on any channel. I cut out like all or all like suspense shows, like I used to watch Law and Order, but I realized that for me, it wasn’t making me very nice, especially like living in New York, walking right behind me.

That is not for me. Sitcoms. I almost only watch sitcoms now and it's so great because it's just like a lot. And especially like picking out the, your favorite episodes and like the laugh out loud ones and it's just such a great way to de stress.

Nancy: That's awesome. Okay. So you, and so work brighter came out as a response to this burnout.

Brittany: Yeah, I originally, the newsletter was honestly originally called work smarter for a few months. And then I was like, I am too obsessed with working smarter. We are all obsessed with working smarter is not the answer we all thought it would. And I just got very sick of that phrase and it started feeling like working brighter or working smarter and the traditional world of productivity and hustle culture.

It was all very black and white and life is not black. And yeah. And so we needed to work brighter. Instead. I love that it started as just like a personal mantra for me that I would tell myself. And then I ended up like customizing notebooks and putting it on my whiteboard and stuff like that. And yeah.

It became very internalized and then it became so internalized that I was talking about it, like on Instagram or something, like my whiteboard would show up and people would be like, oh, I like the sound of that. And so eventually I changed the newsletter name and it snowballed.

Nancy: Wow.

That's awesome. So what's the work brighter clubhouse

Brittany: The Clubhouse is my self care community. It is where I like to say people get support for redefining their relationships with productivity work and breasts. And energy management is a really core part of it. I have a lot of courses about how to hone different habits and self-care practices.

For example, there's just a general habit building course, there's a journaling workshop coming this month and stuff like that. Yeah. So just these workshops and I provide tools for everything. So there's an energy management tracker, there's journaling prompts and, but more important than the resources.

There's the there's the actual community and accountability. I like to say it's the place where we will tell you to take a break and when to take a break. Yeah, I just actually it's I like to say the doors are closed to, for home renovations right now, but they'll be opening back up later in the spring with some new features.

Nancy: Okay. Cool. So it's like we were talking earlier about having your partner there to say, Hey, you need to take a break. This community serves as that in some ways, the mirror kind of

Brittany: exactly it is. Especially if you're working around people who are super in hustle culture. It is I think a really great balance to that.

Yeah. First realized they needed to start it because I was in all of these business communities where I realized I was, my workaholism was being really enabled. Like I would post in there oh, I just finished doing this. And like I wasn't didn't think I'd finished it until next week, but I pushed through and I did it and they would all congratulate me.

Instead of, maybe questioning or something like that. And so I realized that a lot of my bad habits were being enabled in the online communities that I was in. And so this was the. Pendulum swinging in the other direction, where in the clubhouse we do celebrate your work done, but we also celebrate your rests done.

And we celebrate the small progress, not just the big things. So you're not always pushed to make things bigger and bigger.

Nancy: That's awesome. Because I was talking with another guest who was saying that she that she, when she went through a burnout period, no one confronted her. Because she had convinced them she could do it,

Brittany: maybe she could but she shouldn’t have to.

Nancy: Exactly. And that's the problem sometimes with are those, the support systems we've built is we've built support systems that enable us to stay in this culture.

Brittany: Yeah. Yeah. I like to say it's a shelter for escapees from hustle culture.

Nancy: Oh, that's beautiful. That's really beautiful.

I like that a lot. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom around this and your experience and your wisdom born from experience, which I think is the best place that wisdom comes from. And I'm going to put the books that you shared and the work brighter website and all the information about you on our show notes so that everyone can find out more and learn more from your wisdom.

Brittany: Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you.

Nancy: I especially wanted to highlight what Brittany said about the importance of communication and ruthless prioritization being open to saying to your boss. Sure. I can do that. But then what should I take off my plate to make room for it? That sounds wonderful and easy, but I know for many of my clients saying those words would immediately fire off a monger attack saying you should be able to handle anything.

You aren't organized enough. You're just lazy. We automatically assume that we should be able to do everything. And do everything well, I love this question because it lets your boss know you're wanting to prioritize the work. Also reminded them of how much is on your plate. When we start to prioritize self-care, checking in with ourselves, and reducing the judgment or need to justify, we can ask for what we need and a kind loving way that supports us and the team we are a part of.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 131: The Surprising Connection Between Avoidance and Anxiety

In today’s episode, I want to wrap the month up and talk about the connection between avoidance and High Functioning Anxiety and give you some insight into High Functioning Anxiety vs Low Functioning Anxiety.

Let me check Instagram one more time. 

Maybe I got an email? I haven’t checked for 10 minutes. 

My glass of what is almost empty. Let me go downstairs for a refill. Stretching would be good right now, anyway. 

Well, that break took a lot longer than I had planned. I got sucked into pulling some weeds while talking to my husband and then decided to make a snack. 

Oh geez, I forgot to actually refill my glass. 

Okay. Back at my desk. Before I start writing, let me check Instagram one more time. Anything new in my inbox?

This was me trying to write this podcast episode–avoiding and procrastinating. For me, this is all part of the process. 

All this month we have been talking about avoidance and anxiety. We talked with Jacquette Timmons, about avoidance and money, Erica Drewry about our relationship with food, Bailey Parnell about social media, and Andrea Owen about avoidance, anxiety, addiction.

Today I want to wrap the month up and talk about the connection between avoidance and High Functioning Anxiety and give you some insight into High Functioning Anxiety vs Low Functioning Anxiety. 

Avoidance and anxiety go hand in hand but you might be surprised to learn how. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What the differences are between High Functioning Anxiety and Low Functioning Anxiety

• How there really isn’t one type of anxiety that is better than the other

• How knowing where you fall really helps with coping better

• And how to avoid unhealthy coping mechanisms that we often develop around our anxiety

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Okay, let me check Instagram just one more time. Well, maybe I got an email. I haven't checked for like 10 minutes.

Well, now I need some water. I only have half a glass. Let me go downstairs and fill up my cup. And stretching, you know, that would be good right now. WOW! That break took a lot longer than I planned.

You know, it's not my fault. My husband was working outside, so I got sucked into pulling some weeds while talking to him. Well, then I decided I needed to make a snack. Oh, Jeez, I totally forgot to actually fill up my water glass. Let me head back downstairs to actually do that. Okay. I'm back at my desk. Well, before I start writing, let me check Instagram one more time. Oh, I mean an email; it's been like another 10 minutes--I might've missed something.

This is me trying to write this podcast episode avoidance procrastination, all part of the process, I guess. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith, all this month. We're talking about avoidance and anxiety. Avoidance and anxiety go hand in hand, but not how you think today. I want to talk about avoidance and high functioning anxiety. While also giving you some insight into high functioning anxiety versus low functioning anxiety.

One of the sentiments. I hear most often from clients when I describe high-functioning anxiety is, "Oh, good. I'm not the only one". Or finally, that makes so much sense. I'm so glad I'm not alone.

So in that spirit, if you struggle with anxiety, I'm hoping this episode will help you feel less alone. When we have anxiety, we build up coping skills, sometimes healthy, sometimes unhealthy, in response to the anxious feelings inside.

If you have anxiety, you might feel a sense of dread, worry, lots of self-doubts, insecurity, and a sense of vigilance and overwhelm. That anxiety is how you see the world. It is a part of you, and something you deal with how you respond to that anxiety is important. You might be someone who is high functioning, which means in the face of anxiety, you push yourself harder and faster.

You take on more responsibility, go at it alone, engage in perfectionism and people-pleasing and hustle, hustle, hustle, in a sense, trying to outrun your anxiety. If you're someone who responds to your anxiety by low functioning, you tend to freeze in the face of anxiety. You hunker down, become more passive and rely more on other people.

As a reminder, one is not better than the other. In fact, as with most coping mechanisms, no matter your response, you shame yourself. High functioning people wish they could settle themselves down, and low functioning people wish they could propel themselves forward a bit more. Whether your response is high functioning or low functioning, both cause us pain and leave us feeling crappy.

It's important to know the difference between the two responses so you can recognize your anxiety through your behaviors. Many people, when they think of anxiety, think of the traits of low functioning anxiety. They don't realize that the hustling, pushing, going it alone, perfectionism, and people-pleasing are actually a result of anxiety.

So in showcasing these two reactions to anxiety, I want to help you see where your anxiety might be coming out and how you can take action to help. Then there is another separation of anxiety, chronic anxiety versus acute anxiety. Acute anxiety is in response to a stressor, a big deadline at work, a sickness in the family, or a massive worldwide pandemic, all-cause acute anxiety.

Whereas chronic anxiety is ongoing. I have chronic anxiety, which means on a daily basis, I deal with anxiety. It's always there. And through coping skills, I can keep it controlled. It's similar to having a chronic health condition like diabetes or arthritis. It's always there, and it might flare from time to time.

So in times of high stress, such as living through a worldwide pandemic, those with chronic anxiety have their normal everyday anxiety and then throw in some extra anxiety about the world as we know it changing. It's the difference between having pain in your legs because you overdid on your workout and having joint pain in your knees on a daily basis.

And all this month, we've been talking about avoidance. Again, avoidance looks different for those who have low functioning anxiety, and for those who have high functioning anxiety, people with low functioning anxiety are very aware of their anxiety. For the most part, they know they're anxious and what they're anxious about, and they will ruminate on that stressor.

Their avoidance shows up as being passive, avoiding the stressor, procrastinating on the stressor, and even sabotaging their own success. To quiet the nonstop ruminating, they might over or eat a pint of ice cream. They will obsess over social media to escape from their own words. Many of my clients, high function in the face of anxiety, and their anxiety is chronic.

Meaning it is with them all the time. They might experience more anxiety during stressful situations, but for the most part, anxiety is a part of their brain. For people with high functioning anxiety, avoidance looks very different. Many people with high-functioning anxiety are completely unaware that they're experiencing anxiety.

They know something is off. They know they feel unsettled, but rather than facing that unsettled feeling, they push on harder and faster. The more anxious they feel, the more they hustle and avoid those feelings. If you ask someone with high functioning anxiety, what they were anxious about, they probably couldn't tell you with any specificity.

Whereas someone with low functioning anxiety could tell you exactly what they're anxious about. Someone with high functioning anxiety isn't avoiding the stressor; they're avoiding themselves. So they will use alcohol, food, spending social media to numb out as well. But it's not to numb the feelings; it's to settle themselves after pushing so hard.

So in order to relax, they will engage in numbing activities. Both types use all the things we discussed this month to avoid, but for very different reasons, low functioning anxiety is numbing because they're so tired of feeling and high functioning anxiety is numbing because they're so tired of pushing, as Andrea Owen said about her drinking and anxiety and episode 130, that when it rolled around a four o'clock and her anxiety had been building all day, even if her intention was not to drink, she couldn't handle it without a drink.

Knowing where you fall allows you to know how to cope better with your anxiety. Because I help people with high functioning anxiety, my work is around building self loyalty, getting in touch with your feelings, building a relationship with yourself, and quieting the monger who is telling you to go go go. If you have low functioning anxiety, help would come from learning how to move through your feelings and not get stuck in them, mindset work, and shifting your ruminating thoughts and worries.

I just cannot express enough how figuring out the difference between these two responses of low functioning and high functioning has been such a game-changer for my life and my work. For so many years, I tried to treat my anxiety with low functioning anxiety tools and just made it worse. Shifting my mindset and pulling myself away from my feelings was not what I needed.

It was the opposite of what I needed. Once I realized that treating anxiety for someone with high functioning anxiety involves totally different tools. Everything shifted for my clients and me. And because those of us with anxiety love to have everything in black and white and tied up in a neat box. I want to caution you that these two definitions of high functioning and low functioning are on a continuum.

There may be times you use coping skills that are high functioning, and there may be times you use coping skills that are low functioning. People tend to have a preference, but it isn't an either-or scenario all the time. So back to avoidance, because I really want to continue to pull apart these two methods of functioning when it comes to avoidance, avoidance is part of both types. It just shows up in very different ways.

Here's an example. It's a simple example. You're given an assignment at work to present on a new project you just started in front of the entire office. With low functioning anxiety, you immediately freak out. Your response to this fear is to avoid the project altogether. You procrastinate on the task, putting it completely out of your mind because whenever it comes up, you're on the verge of a panic attack, and you just can't face it. You may, in fact, sabotage the task in some way. When you do start working on it, you miss deadlines and only do the task with a half-hearted attitude.

Putting all your energy into it is just too scary. So two days before the presentation, you're lamenting to a coworker about this project. And so they, probably someone with high functioning anxiety, jump in to take over for you and rescue you from having to present at all. These avoidance behaviors are not necessarily based on conscious choices but in response to an underlying fear of being judged, humiliated, or exposed as a fraud.

For those with high functioning anxiety, you also have avoidance behaviors in response to an underlining fear of being judged, humiliated, or exposed as a fraud, but it shows up very differently. Your Monger is loud, you know, you're going to fail and let them down. So you procrastinate until the last minute.

But you're driven by this fear of failure. You let the idea percolate in your head, you work around the idea, you get your desk already, your research the right way to use the technology, or see if there's actual research on the project you're working on. And at the very last minute, you start actually working on the presentation.

Once you get your butt in the chair, you work your butt off, getting every detail right. And you go above and beyond the call of duty. The morning of the presentation, feeling like a fraud, you grab a couple of extra donuts and pour yourself an extra-large coffee with cream because you deserve it after all the carbs don't help.

And as you step up to the presentation, you feel like you might just puke, but you can't run now, what would people think? So you step up on the stage, and almost as if you were channeling a professional speaker, you take control of the situation and pull off an amazing presentation. You walk off the stage, your coworkers are congratulating you, but you can't take the praise because you just keep thinking of all the ways you did it wrong and could have done it better.

You escaped your office, exhausted, depleted, and almost on the verge of two. With high functioning anxiety, you do the actual task. You run toward the thing that is most scary, but the avoidance strategies come in very different ways. You avoid feeling anything about the task. You avoid being fully present around the project.

You avoid owning your success because your anxiety and your Monger are telling you that if you do face anything, you will be exposed for the fraud. Because we're living in extremely high anxiety time, I would be missing something if I didn't use this time as an example. During the past few weeks, clients have said they're feeling out of control, fearful of the unknown, and full of insecurity and doubt.

And here are some of the ways low functioning anxiety and high functioning anxiety have shown up during this worldwide pandemic. If you have low functioning anxiety, you might be having a hard time concentrating. So giving yourself an out about working too hard, leaving the groceries and other tasks to the rest of the family, you're going back and forth between oversleeping and undersleeping.

Probably have your days and nights even confused, having a hard time, doing anything other than obsessing about the news while curled up on the couch or going days without watching the news while bingeing, Netflix curled up on the couch.

If you have high functioning anxiety, you've probably been overworking, even though you're having a hard time focusing. Over-planning obsessing about the groceries, focusing on homeschooling perfectly, forcing yourself to constantly be doing, being creative, trying something new using this time to be beneficial, you might have trouble sleeping, but you're jumping out of bed to make sure you're using the time production.

Sticking to the schedule as much as possible and beating yourself up when you fail to stick to it, looking outside of yourself for the right way to do this and obsessively reading articles on what to do and how to feel. And both of these types might use food as a numbing tool. As Erica Drewry the dietician and nutritionist explained in episode 128, you might be overwhelmed or you're avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don't want to feel.

Do you know what works for both types of anxiety? Awareness, and kindness. The very nature of high functioning anxiety is avoidance avoiding our feelings, avoiding what's really going on, looking outside of ourselves for answers and wisdom. Again, the reminder that one way is not better when it comes to coping with anxiety, people who appear high functioning can be in distress in the same way that people who are low functioning can be one is not more.

They're both simply responses to anxiety and avoidance is a huge part of both. Those of us with high functioning anxiety have been taught that our quirky behaviors, our overarching need for control and doing it right, or because we're high strong or type a, and that might be true. And for many of us, those behaviors are a sign of something underneath that is way more debilitating and overwhelming feeling of being found out.

As the fraud we feel inside, it is a carefully constructed house of cards designed to appear solid and strong, but in reality, is consumed by doubt and insecurity. The one theme in all the podcast episodes this month, from money to social media, to alcohol, to food, was until we stop avoiding and pretending we have it all together.

We won't heal. The first step in the healing process is looking ourselves in the mirror and saying, I see you. I get it. Let's lay it down for a few seconds. Let's put down the hustle, the appearance, the, I got this. Let's be kind. Let's admit we don't have it. And that is okay.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---