Season 4 Episode 3: Imagination, Mindfulness, and Rest
Tips for using your imagination to help make mindfulness work for you
Nancy has tried and tried again to be a consistent meditator. Everyone says it's the key to getting rid of anxiety! But the "traditional" ways of meditating that she's tried-- sitting on a pillow for 5 minutes a day thinking about *nothing*-- have NOT worked for her. That's why she got in touch with Jessica Snow. Jessica is a spiritual teacher and writer of guided meditations, whose approach to mindfulness is anything but rigid. Jessica shares some tips for using your imagination to help make mindfulness work for you and even shares a short guided meditation with Nancy.
Listen to the full episode to hear:
Nancy's struggle with meditating and how the traditional rules of meditation clash with her high functioning anxiety.
A conversation about imagination, mindfulness and rest with Jessica Snow.
Tips for folks with HFA who want to harness the benefits of mindfulness.
Learn more about Jessica Snow:
Go to youaremagicla.com to sign up for Jessica's newsletter, listen to her guided meditations, watch her videos, and sign up for her workshops.
Follow Jessica on Instagram @meditation_jess
Learn more about Self Loyalty School:
+ Read the Transcript
Intro
Theme
Nancy: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.
As my producer Nicki, and I were brainstorming topic ideas for this season of rest–the idea of mediation came up. Rest… meditation… seems like a perfect combo right?
Theme out
Nicki: [00:00:00] this has come up a few times over the past couple seasons of the happier approach your, uh, reluctance to meditate. Um, tell me about that. Nancy: That’s my producer, Nicki.
Nancy: Hmm. You know, I wonder how much it is that, um, I do have a reluctance to meditate, but now it's become kind of this, uh, you know, it's kind of like the, I've never seen the Wizard of Oz. I've never meditated. Like it's one of those points of pride. Like, I can't meditate, And so it's become rigid in my world. Nancy: Anytime I talk about my anxiety, the next question I get is have you tried meditation?!? Or when I hear someone talking about their anxiety, they often talk about their meditation practice and how it changed their life. But for me, meditation has never been a silver bullet.
Nicki: I listened to your meditation episode from past, like a long time ago. Where, what did you do? You like, you tried to meditate for a certain amount of time. Nancy: well, I started doing a meditation experiment, where I downloaded, um, Headspace and I did some meditation. I was supposed to do a month's Nicki: Uhhuh. Nancy: but that didn't, that did not happen. We did a follow up after the month and we kind of de, we talked about it. but it still felt, even at the end of that episode, it still, I still felt like, um, you should be able to meditate. What, what's wrong with you? Nicki: Gotcha. So we're following up. We're continuing the work. [00:05:00] Nancy: We're continuing the work because this is something that that continually fascinates me because it is kind of like, you know, I'm trying to figure out how can I loosen up the definition of meditation because it is so rigid in people's minds that it's sitting on a pillow somewhere. [00:03:00] Um, you know, with this. music and a voice of a person being like, you know, this soft music and a person's voice that's so mellow that it just makes me want to pull my hair out. Just thinking about that visual, you know, visualizing that makes me more anxious. and that's what I wanted to get at, here are the ways to get at meditation that may not involve sitting on a cushion somewhere, meditating, and for those who do it. Meditation is something that's beneficial. It's just finding your vibe of meditation. Nancy: But if the key to benefiting from meditation is to “find your vibe” it’s taken a REALLY long time for me to find mine.
Theme out
ACT I: Meditation HELP!
MUS
Nancy: 5 years ago, I kept reading article after article about what successful people do to be calmer throughout their day. All the tips were to get up early in the morning, take a long walk, meditate, and journal. I decided I wanted to create more calm, and here was the formula! I set my alarm for 5AM like a good little self-development soldier. And then 5AM rolled around, and I woke up filled with anxiety; what am I going to listen to on my walk? Can I Iisten to something, or is that breaking the rules? Should I listen to a meditation or be quiet? How long should I meditate? AHHH, so many questions and doubts and insecurities!?!
This was a personal place of shame for me for years. My Monger, my name for the inner critic voice, would say, “Everyone says meditation is good for anxiety so why don’t YOU meditate–you make everything so difficult!!!”
I would start my day and think about meditating... C'mon, Nancy just do it, you will be better when you start doing this... and then I heard my one-on-one clients say the same thing... I just need to start meditating... implying all will be healed if I can meditate.
My Monger implied that too. She convinced me that there was only one way to get into your body, and it was through meditation. So if I couldn't meditate, I would never be able to slow down and be present. (See how wily the Monger can be?!) So meditation becomes this block or this excuse for why I am not implementing the ideas I know will help because I am holding out for when I am magically inspired to meditate.
MUS out
The problem with holding up meditation as the ULTIMATE cure for all my anxieties is that meditation becomes that new magic button that I think, oh, once I start doing meditation, then everything will be healed, and this self-loyalty stuff will be easy. The other side of that thought is until I do that meditation thing, I'm not going to get anywhere near that self-loyalty stuff.
After weeks of failing at meditation and trying again and again over the years. I had to be honest that I wasn't going to become a master meditator. No matter how hard I tried, I could not implement a meditation practice of sitting still for five to 10 minutes every day. Or every other day, it just wasn't in the cards for me. So I had to get serious about, okay, if I'm not able to do that right now, how will I add mindfulness, groundedness, and peace into my daily life?
On my way to answering that question, I came across Jessica Snow. Her idea of meditation is decidedly not sitting on a pillow with calm music playing. And that sounded really appealing to me…
ACT II: Interview with Jessica Snow Jessica Snow: I am Jessica Snow and I am a. Of the people for the people's spiritual teacher. I used to identify primarily as someone who was known for guided meditation, but in the last few years, I really expanded beyond that. And, um, yeah, so I teach everyday people, um, how to experience extraordinary things, um, that are available freely to all of us. Nancy: Jessica’s definition of her work is expansive– just like the practice of meditation itself can be– she writes and performs guided meditations, teaches spiritual practices and creative practices.
Jessica Snow: I work with essentially nature. I work with creativity and I work with the imaginal spaces that we have within us. Nancy: And Jessica’s been on this journey– in one way or another– since she was a kid.
MUS
Jessica Snow: So when I was young, I loved fairy tales, myths. I just love that. I love to read those sort of things. That's sort of how my imagination kind of in its most like pure state works. I've written over a hundred visualizations. in some of them you'll find a little bit of man-made stuff, but mostly I'm in that realm, that realm is natural to me, the realm of like trees and mountains and animals and spirits and elementals like that, I came into it through fiction, essentially through, you know, fairy tales and myths. And then when I got into my twenties, I started really being a seeker. I was lucky enough to be raised in Los Angeles. Everything was sort of like as weird as I am. My mom already had a friend who was much weirder, you know, so [00:12:00] that was like, you know, fine. Nancy: Eventually, Jessica started holding spiritual gatherings for her friends right in her backyard.
Jessica Snow: on the full moon and on the new moon, I would do these sort of elaborate ceremonies for my friends. And then my friends' friends started to come and I had been working in like corporate world and all that prior to that, I never really liked it, but I did it because I felt I, that was what a good person did. A good member of society. And then I realized, oh, I have this weird niche skill where I can take people through an inner experience. And I can sort of, you know, I say the same set of words. And if there's 50 people in the room, they have 50 different experiences. MUS out
Nancy: Part of the reason that everyone has a different experience with these meditative practices, is that, of course, every human is different– we each bring something unique to the experience and have our own inner worlds and associations.
Jessica Snow: when I say in a meditation to find an animal. very, very rarely will. Two people in the room [00:13:00] have the same animal and each animal means something different. So what an alligator means to me may be different than what an alligator means to you. human beings are so infinitely. Interesting. And we have all of this, you know, miraculous stuff inside of us. And I just love that space and I love to draw people into that, their own version of that space. Nancy: This approach to meditation that focuses on individual preference and experience really resonated with me.
MUS
Nancy Jane Smith: I have to say, so I am a, one of those. I can't meditate, not so much. I [00:03:00] can't meditate cuz I can't stop my thoughts person, but I am a skeptical meditator. Jessica Snow: let's remember most of the meditation processes,These, we are householders. We are not monks on a mountaintop. the monks on the mountaintop were able to do these sort of very disciplined, um, kind of linear more linear practices because why people were giving them food. People were giving them a place to live, right? So we're in a different sort of landscape when it comes to our real lives. Nancy: Jessica’s approach is the opposite of rigid, especially in contrast to the kinds of meditation that I’ve been trying to shoehorn into my life over the years.
Jessica Snow: the types of meditation, who that have become most popularized in my opinion, are the most masculine meaning that there's a certain beginning. There's a certain end. There's all these rules to be good at it that you must follow. What if we took away the word meditation, and instead we inquired with ourselves, are we [00:04:00] having some time. In each day where we are living in an awakened state, awake to what's happening around us, awake to what's happening within us, awake to what's happening for others in the collective, not just humanity, but also plants and animals and forces of nature and, and you know, the ocean and the planet. And if we're doing that each every day, that to me speaks to meditation. MUS out
Nancy: Jessica says that it’s really important that your meditation approach works FOR you, that it’s flexible based on the kinds of activities you enjoy, your attention span, and your physical needs.
MUS
Jessica Snow: When I, I look forward to my meditations, I also don't give myself a lot of rules. I have a whole toolkit, some days eight putting on a song and dancing for five minutes is my meditation. Some days taking a walk with my dog, not listening to headphones, and instead looking at everything that happens on the walk as sign. As symbols as representing something in my life is my meditation. Sometimes having a phone call with a friend is my [00:05:00] meditation,the word meditation, I think has lost its teeth or what, you know, it feels like to me. And so if we take that away and instead sort of start to investigate and create repeatable rituals for ourselves that fit us and fit where we are in our lives. Nancy Jane Smith: totally. cuz this is something that I get trapped on and it's something that my clients get trapped on is what's the right way to meditate. Am I doing it right? Am I doing it wrong? Am I, so I love how you're like let's bust that out and, and you know, build self loyalty by being loyal to ourselves of what is it I need for my meditation and my, you know, my mindfulness or how, whatever freaking word you want to use. How can I get present to what is, Jessica Snow: and that's why I have expanded. Right? What I'm teaching. Because I can see for certain people, the sitting still is, is at this juncture in their lives. And we all change over time is not gonna work for them. What they need to do is actually listen to a visualization on their run in the morning. Right? So we can also have our eyes open. If you've had a lot of [00:07:00] trauma, closing your eyes and paying attention to your breath is, is not gonna probably work for you. And then you're gonna think I can't meditate and you're gonna leave the whole, you're gonna throw the baby out with the bath water, and you're gonna miss that. if that same person in my experience, if they go into nature and leave their eyes open and then listen to a meditation that is gonna be a really healing experience for them. MUS out
Nancy Jane Smith: totally. Yes. Cuz I feel like, you know, me and so many of my clients. Have spent most of our lives looking outside that there's an answer outside and I just have to find it. And then in part of working with me is recognizing no, no, no, actually it's inside. And the part you've been ignoring all along, it has all this cool stuff in there that needs to be sorted through and looked at. Jessica Snow: And you know, um, we call that in my community, the wild silky, MUS
and this is something from Mary Oliver, great American poet. She uses it in a slightly different sense, but it's come to mean [00:10:00] this part of us that knows with a capital K and the wild silky, we think it lives like below the belly button button, the center of the torso. And you have to sort of wake it up by being quiet and still, maybe being in nature or something like that. But then when it unfurls itself, it. It will answer any question you're wondering about it does know from this deep, wild, intuitive instinctual part of us, You gotta gently wake it up, then it unfurls itself. And then it has all of these offerings like flowers on a, on a tree it just blooms open towards you. But it's, it's a quiet one. It's not gonna scream and shout over all the other things. So our work is to give it an environment where it feels safe to unfurl. And then we, this is also countercultural. We listen instead of talking and then we [00:11:00] write down whatever we hear, no matter how strange it seems. MUS out
Nancy Jane Smith: Okay. Would you be willing to walk us through a quick meditation? Jessica Snow: would love to. Nancy Jane Smith: Okay. Jessica Snow: I would love to, I would love to. It'd be my great pleasure. um, okay, so let's begin. So leave your eyes open if you want. If you like closing your eyes, guess what? Close your eyes. And let's just begin. See if you can make your physical self, your body about 3% more comfortable for me. I habitually cross my legs. So I'm putting both my feet on the ground and I'm letting the bottoms of my feet really touch the floor. But for you, maybe it might be like sitting up a little taller or maybe [00:20:00] leaning back in your chair, whatever it is, 3% more comfortable in the body. MUS
And then let's begin. by imagining that our thoughts are like in a swirling cloud, above the crown of the head. So visualizing, or perhaps even sensing your thoughts or outside of your head swirling around in the air. And then let's take a couple cycles of breath just to breathe thoughts into the place where they belong, breathing them into the mind. And so for some people, this feels like a gathering of the thoughts, breathing them into the mind, breathing them into the head, and perhaps having this sense of a little click as we get all those thoughts into the place where they belong. The.[00:21:00] And then let's take a few cycles of breath. We're just reattaching the head to the body very often. There's a sort of border. So we've got the thoughts in the mind, and now we're just breath breathing and reminding the head, reminding the mind it's part of this body. Now we've got the thoughts in the head and the head attached to the body part of the body. And then let's just take a few cycles of breath where we're breathing our body onto planet earth. Remembering that we are on this beautiful blue, green planet. We are interwoven with all the things that live here.[00:22:00] And so that was just sort of the arrival part of this micropractice we got our thoughts into our head and get our head reattached to the body and we brought our body onto planet earth. And now let's play with focus a little bit. So let's just begin by paying attention to any surface experience. So this can be the feeling of air on the skin. It can be sounds. You might be able to hear it can be the feeling of the breathing that's happening. Maybe you can feel actually the clothes that you're wearing. So just having an awareness of some surface experience and really what the experience is, doesn't matter too much. what you're really doing is practicing being the witness who chooses where to put your attention. And right now our attention is on [00:23:00] something surface. Even thoughts can be sort of surface preferences. So a few more cycles of breath, just paying attention to any surface thing, anything at all. If you have your eyes open, you can look at the environment around you. That can be your surface experience. Now the invitation is really gently to withdraw your awareness from the surface experiences and bring your awareness to your inner realms. So this can [00:24:00] be drawing your awareness into maybe feelings or emotions. Sometimes when we turn towards our inner realms, we realize that we're time traveling. We've jumped back to some memory of the past, or we've zoomed forward to something that might happen later on. And again, none of that is bad. Nothing needs to be changed. We're just. Practicing moving our focus. We were focusing on the surface. Now we're focusing on something happening inside us and whatever it is, it is, it's all grist for the mill. We don't need to decide that this inner thing is good, bad, right wrong. Instead, we're practicing, moving our awareness inward. And if you feel like nothing's going on in there that's information as well, it [00:25:00] is turning the awareness to the inner realms whatever's happening inside. maybe you turn your awareness to your insides and you feel, you know, some physical process in the body. Maybe you notice some tension or tightness again, no need to name or explain or change anything, but instead just like, oh, isn't that interesting? This is happening inside me. Okay. One more and feel free to be playful with this one. [00:26:00] The invitation now is to extend your awareness out. To the oneness that binds all things. So some people like to look at this as the energy of life itself of existence or nature, or perhaps a deity or perhaps, you know, the quantum field. But again, the practice is just to move the awareness from the inner now to the oneness of all things and connecting with that. And this can feel any kind of way. And however it feels is perfect. It's all grist for the mill. I to sell a few cycles of breath, just tuning into the oneness, the great infinite cosmic web that binds all.[00:27:00] Putting your awareness on the energetic underpinnings of life. As we know it, a few more cycles of breath with the oneness, with all that is, Jessica Snow: and then experimenting with the idea that this witness part of yourself that was able to choose. Now I'm paying attention to the surface. Now I'm paying attention to the inner. Now I'm paying attention to the [00:28:00] oneness. That's that witness consciousness can be something that is brought into daily life and something that you can play with throughout the day. So then when you're ready, you just let your eyes open. If your eyes have been open, give yourself a little stretch or once again, making your body about 3% more comfortable. MUS out
So that was literally 10 minutes. How did that feel for you? Nancy Jane Smith: Ooh, that felt like a lot longer than 10 minutes. Jessica Snow: yeah, yeah. Nancy Jane Smith: it. Okay. Let me say this. I love your voice. I love that. You're not like, okay, so now let's take a deep breath. I love that. I loved that. You were like, in these, you weren't concentrating on the breath. You were like do some breath cycles, which that was really comforting to me. Just that I kind of had some [00:29:00] control over my own experience there. especially because I didn't feel anything when I went inside. So I loved that you were like that maybe a sign too. And I was like, yes, that is a sign. But then I get impatient at that point was when you lost me. Like, and not because of you, I'm not saying you lost me. I'm saying that I got woo sidetracked. Jessica Snow: Let's get involved with this a little bit, cuz it might be interesting. You know, a lot of times when one person is experiencing something, they think that they're the only one but actually it's I said that there might not be anything cuz I know that's a common experience. Nancy Jane Smith: Yeah. Jessica Snow: I don't know if you wanna feel special or you wanna feel like you're with everybody Nancy Jane Smith: I figured it was common or you wouldn't have mentioned it. It actually made me feel better. Cause I was like, oh, okay. Cuz yeah. And I understand why I'm not feeling anything. I think knowing my own what's happening in my world and where I am right now Jessica Snow: That's exactly right. And so, because it's like the first time you tried to ride a bike, you probably didn't ride the bike perfectly right. Successfully. Let's say the same thing happens in these spaces sometimes Nancy: But Jessica says that letting go of the feeling that you “didn’t do it right” and just continuing to show up for yourself, is key to finding a restful meditative or spiritual practice that works for you.
MUS
Jessica Snow: It's very important for us to romance our inner self. We wanna show up like Romeo under the balcony, right? We wanna keep showing up. If we tell this part of ourselves, we're gonna show up every morning and open ourselves, you know, or at, at the end of every day, we're gonna do this. We just keep showing up. So I, if I were you, it would be interesting to me cuz I'm sort of an Explorer in this way. I would throughout my day, set a little timer for 30 seconds, 45 seconds. And just look in there for a second [00:31:00] and then go back to whatever I'm doing. So not getting hung up and applying the rules of success of the outer world to the inner world and having that sense of like, [00:32:00] I'm gonna draw you out little wild silky part of me. Like I'm gonna find a way maybe you only feel safe when I'm in the bath or maybe you only feel safe when I've had my nice, you know, fruit salad or whatever you, whatever the things are. and to get beyond this sort of,I did it well, I didn't do it well, or I can do this, or I can getting beyond that binary being like, actually I'm just an adventurer, I'm an Explorer. And I'm interested in supporting that part of me until it's ready Nancy: And it’s totally okay if your personal way of getting to that meditative place looks or feels completely different than what “traditional” meditation looks like.
Jessica Snow: And you know, I'm our, I'm thinking of our friend. She like does a full face of makeup every day. Beautiful. Nancy Jane Smith: mm-hmm Jessica Snow: That would not be restful for me, but I can totally see and understand that for her that time with the mirror is restful is a peaceful place for her. Right. So for everybody is gonna be different just giving ourselves permission to explore and [00:44:00] to test and pivot, right? MUS out
Nancy Jane Smith: I love how you keep bringing us back. You do such a great job of that, um, to ourselves, for me, for me, for me, for me, this works, that is that, And also the, because I think that is so counter that's the ultimate countercultural thing you're doing is saying, it's you it's you it's you? What about you? What about you? What about you? Because this whole industry is a muck with people telling us, even in this industry, even the self-help industry. Yeah. How we should be doing it, how we should be feeling How weshould like, so kudos to that. I love that's really cool because even as I asked you the question of, oh, what do I say? You know, what do you think it's in the way of rest? And I thought at some point you just have to be willing to do it. Nancy Jane Smith: you just gotta be willing to go in there and get a little uncomfortable Nancy: Sometimes that discomfort can be around actually committing to figuring out what kind of restful, meditative practices work for you. Even if it seems impossible at first. Making the space to say, I’m going to figure this out and continuing to work at it, can make a huge difference.
MUS
Jessica Snow: If I believe that rest is gonna contribute to my long term wellbeing and [00:46:00] longevity and ease and peace and joy and ability to, to sort of, you know, get to do my thing for a long period of time, I can make that decision using my thinking mind. And then that's a north star, so that's a compass point for me. So then as I go through every day, when I have these micro opportunities for rest, or if I need to help myself, you know, um, enjoy deeper rest at night, it's like, oh yeah, that's one of my values. That's something worth being loyal to, that's something that I have fidelity towards. That's very powerful, especially over the long arc of a person's life, I understand rest is important. So even if I'm having frustration that my way of resting doesn't look like somebody else. Oh, it doesn't matter because I'm gonna keep showing up because this is a north star for me. And I know that if I head in this direction, that's, that's going to be good for me overall. Nancy Jane Smith: why do you love the work that you do in this space? Jessica Snow: I love this work because it connects me to all things. It connects me to nature. This work connects me to other people so deeply because I get to see the sort of infinite realms within us. I get to see the, the fidelity that our inner self shows to us when we choose to show up for it. I could never have thought of this profession. I'm so grateful for it. And it is evolving, right. Even how I, when we started talking, I've moved from, I teach guided meditation to I'm, I'm a, a personal spirituality teacher. That's something different. So I'm evolving too with it. Um, and it's just a road that I never want to step off of. I just wanna keep going until I'm full Willy Nelson, just with long braids and, you know, sitting on the porch, telling stories. MUS out
ACT III: Nancy’s Conclusion Nancy: Talking with Jessica really helped me to honor the fact that even if I’m a “reluctant meditator” I can still have a restful, mindful practice that connects me with my inner thoughts and feelings– even if it looks a lot different than what we traditionally think of as “meditation.”
MUS
The reason meditation, mindfulness, inner quiet– whatever you want to call it!-- is so powerful is threefold:
One, it slows down your brain and allows you to notice your body. Two, it allows you to notice your thoughts and how they are constantly there, spinning and jumping from thing to thing. Three, it helps you build a relationship with yourself so you can cultivate more self-loyalty.
Meditation is about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable, and the more we can get comfortable with the uncomfortable, the easier living with our anxiety will be.
Just as running is not the only way to exercise, meditation is not the only way to get into your body and quiet your anxiety.
MUS out
And when I finally surrendered to the fact that quote unquote traditional meditation was not for me... I started to figure out what was... And I came up with a set of what I call mindfulness hacks...if I can't do 5 minutes all at once, maybe I could do 5 minutes broken up throughout the day. These Mindfulness Hacks also allow me to slow down, build a relationship with myself, and notice my thoughts spinning and spinning. Another one that works well is the five senses check-in: what do I see, hear, taste, smell, and feel?
MUS
Standing in line at the grocery store, I am super annoyed! My Monger jumps in: “You have places to be?!! You should have come earlier–you procrastinated too long!” Ok, I think, get into your body I stand up straight and do a slow neck roll. Then I challenge myself to name 3 things I see, hear and smell? And to be as specific as possible. Making it a game is much more fun and bonus, no closing my eyes. I see the sign discouraging plastic bags, the child behind me laughing with her Dad, and the college kids trying to make the self-scan work. I hear laughter, chatting, the door wooshing open. I smell fresh bread, fish, and my shampoo. By the time I finished with the smells, it was my turn to check out, and I was much more relaxed.
MUS out
A common thread running through these mindfulness hacks is they usually include a full-body movement so you are 100% getting out of your head, and they require you to check in with yourself. Even if I just touched my toes or wiggled my body for a few seconds and took some deep breaths while doing it, I am able to shift out of the headspace of the Monger.
We talk in much more detail about mindfulness hacks, and I share a detailed list of hacks in Self Loyalty School. Which is all about quieting your high-functioning anxiety through cultivating self-loyalty. You can learn more about that at selfloyaltyschool.com
Outro
Theme
That’s it for this week! In our next episode we’ll be talking about a topic that seems fun, but can often be sneakily stressful: vacation. I’ll answer questions from a few… special guests… and we’ll talk about how to actually relax when we go on a trip. That’s next time, on the Happier Approach.
Nancy: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. For more episodes, to get in touch, or to learn more about quieting High Functioning Anxiety you can visit nancy jane smith dot com. And if you like the show, leave us a review! It actually helps us out a lot.
Big thanks to Jessica Snow for speaking with us today. You can learn more about Jessica, subscribe to her guided meditations and her newsletter, or sign up for her SoulCollage workshops at youaremagicla.com.
The Happier Approach will be back with another episode on November 4th. Take care, until then.