Season 4 Episode 2: Sleep
Tips for folks with HFA who want to harness the power of sleep.
Nothing hits harder over the age of 30 than a bad night of sleep. When Nancy thinks about rest, she automatically thinks about sleep, and how hard it can be to give ourselves the space to actually allow ourselves to get the full amount of sleep we need. Nancy talks about her personal "sleep rules" and how she's learning to bend them. And we talk to Dr. Sara Mednick, a cognitive neuroscience, author and sleep researcher about the truly magical things that our bodies do while our eyes are shut.
Listen to the full episode to hear:
Nancy's personal journey with sleep and how she's learning to overcome her ingrained "sleep rules."
A conversation about the science of sleep with Dr. Sara Mednick.
Tips for folks with HFA who want to harness the power of sleep.
Learn more about Sara Mednick:
Buy Sara's book The Power of the Downstate on her website, or wherever books are sold.
Follow Sara on Twitter @Sara_Mednick
Learn more about Self Loyalty School:
+ Read the Transcript
Nancy: Hey guys, it’s me! Nancy Jane Smith. Welcome back to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships.
This season, we’re talking all about rest. How do you prioritize it? How do you make it truly and sustainably part of your life? We kicked everything off with last week’s episode, so if you’re interested in how we’re framing the season, go back and listen to it. But today we’re taking on a kind of rest… umbrella topic. Sleep.
Anyone who’s ever tossed and turned all night knows that when your brain’s been going at 100 mph all day, moving from one thing to the next without stopping, it can be really hard to turn that off and fall asleep at night. Sometimes I’ll get in bed at 10PM and I can feel the minutes ticking by as my thoughts turn over and over in my head and sleep continues to evade me. Then I sneak a peek at the clock and suddenly it’s midnight. Foiled again!
It’s times like those when my Monger comes out to play. I beat myself up for not getting to sleep on time, despite my best intentions. But that’s something I’m learning to work on.
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ACT I: Sleep Is Hard
When I think of rest, I ultimately think of sleep.
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The importance of sleep was drilled into me as a child. I always had a much earlier bedtime than my friends, and my Dad had a strict quiet rule at 9PM. Sleep was valued so much that I developed a lot of unhealthy rules around sleep. Specifically, what a good person does when it comes to sleep.
A good person gets 8 hours. A good person doesn't nap. A good person is in bed before 11 and awake before 7 am The earlier I get up, the better of a person I am. And most importantly, no matter how little sleep I have gotten—I soldier on without complaint.
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Growing up, I unquestioningly followed these rules because I was afraid of what might happen if I was a quote unquote “bad person” when it came to sleep.
Looking back on this now, as an adult, I am struck by how silly all these rules are… and how totally wild it is that they’ve guided my life. Because of my High functioning anxiety they’ve created great fodder for my Monger… until recently.
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Earlier this week, my husband and I had gone to a friend's house for dinner– nothing crazy, just a couple of glasses of wine, some card games, and good conversation. We arrived home around 11 pm, and as I walked upstairs, I thought ok, it's a school night and you will be tired tomorrow, but you have A LOT to get done.
My Monger stepped in with her familiar refrain…
You aren't going to get enough sleep!!! You shouldn't have stayed out so late!! Well, you will need to push through it tomorrow.
But then…
"Nope!” my Biggest Fan, the voice of self loyalty, replied. “Pushing isn't how we do it anymore. And for the record–you aren’t in school anymore!! Something has to give. Either you won't get as much done tomorrow, or you need to sleep-in some, or take a nap."
TAKE A NAP!?! My Monger replied—what is happening here?! You are making her soft.
No, I thought—I have time in the morning. If I am exhausted, I could take a nap—we will see what happens. My Biggest Fan is right. I won't be able to write much if I am tired. So I need to prioritize rest; however, that happens. Which amazingly silenced my Monger.
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My Monger thinks that rest– and thus, sleep– is for the weak. But what my Monger doesn’t know is that sleep… is kind of magical. It’s a time when our bodies and brains can repair themselves after long days of stress. And it’s a time that we should all really be taking advantage of.
ACT II: Interview with Sara Mednick Nancy Jane Smith: [00:00:00] I will say my cat has joined me next to me on Sara Mednick: Oh, my cat is right here. Nancy Jane Smith: oh, so cute. What's your cat's name? Sara Mednick: Mama. Nancy Jane Smith: Mama. Uh, well, Calvin. Um, and I'm not going to bring him into the screen cuz he gets a little surly, but here. Nancy: This is Dr. Sara Mednick. She’s a professor at UC Irvine in the department of Cognitive Science, and the author of the book, The Power of the Downstate, among others.
Sara Mednick: I study sleep and I study what are all the, um, mechanisms in the brain and body that make sleep so helpful and supportive for our life. Nancy: But Sara wasn’t always on the path to becoming a neuroscientist. She started out her career… as an actor.
Sara Mednick: I had this dream as a child to be an actress, and then when you get to, I got to New York city and I realized, like, there's gotta be, there's gotta be more that I can do for this world than just stand on these audition lines. And so I got a job working in a mental hospital at Bellevue, NYU, and I got really excited by just working with people with mental illness and feeling like. You know this entire in curiosity of what was going on in their brains that made them behave the way they were behaving. and I suddenly realized, you know, what, I could actually study the brain. Nancy: After that experience, Sara directed all her energy to studying neuroscience. And her background in theater actually made her really good at explaining some of these complicated concepts to a general audience.
Sara Mednick: It's very important that I translate.[00:02:00] The work that we do in the lab into a palatable and interesting and useful, um, piece of information for, for people out there in the world. Nancy Jane Smith: how do you, how do you study sleep? What does that look like on a day to day basis?
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Sara Mednick: So we have a seven bedroom sleep lab at UC Irvine. And what that means is it's basically a 24 hour lab. I have. A fleet of amazing undergrads who are trained to do EEG setups,. we have people come in for nighttime sleep and we do a bunch of testing, before they get to bed. We test them on memory and emotions and attention and working memory. Um, and then we have them sleep in the lab. We [00:03:00] can look at their brain activity. And then when they wake up, we have them test on those same tasks again. Nancy: Sara and her team compare results, to see if any of the functions they tested before the person went to sleep– like memory, or attention– have gotten better or worse after a night of rest. Sara Mednick: You know, they got better on this memory. They had better memory or they had memory loss because of sleep loss. So that's basically how. The sleep lab works. MUS out
Nancy Jane Smith: so what are the most important functions of sleep? What does it do for your mind and body? Sara Mednick: right. Uh, gosh, I mean, the list goes on and we still don't really understand what's in this list. sleep is incredibly important for our restorative functions. Daytime is, um, filled with a lot of. Energy depletion. Right? We're running around, we're doing things it's very stressful. It uses up our resources. Nancy: Working out, experiencing stress or anxiety during the day, even things like being social and hanging out with friends, or learning new things. All of these little parts of daily life add up and deplete our store of mental and physical energy. So… how do we replenish that supply? Sara Mednick: It's very hard when you are awake to do any of these repairing restorative activities. So that is why the restorative functions of, our body have been relegated to sleep and our brain have been relegated to sleep because it's the time when we're not taking in new information. Sleep is the one time where it's like, okay, now we're actually out. And now we can go into all those repetitive modes. Sara Mednick: Your cardiovascular system and your metabolic system, your guts, all of these, um, systems require sleep to calm down and repair and replenish, um, energy resources. So to make you ready for the next. Nancy: Sara has seen these “reparative modes” at work in her sleep lab. MUS
Sara Mednick: When we fall asleep, probably the, the biggest. Shift that we experience, um, throughout the entire 24 hour cycle is falling asleep. So what you see in the brain is a sudden massive slowdown in brain activity. What you see is when you're awake, your brain is highly active. It's multitasking, a lot of different brain areas. Um, sending electrical signals at different frequencies at the same time. So it's a big mess when you fall asleep, suddenly everything slows down and everything starts to synchronize. So your EEG starts to get really, um, slow, the electrical signals start to get really slow and they start to actually. the whole brain starts to synchronize to the same slow rhythms. the whole brain becomes one big rhythmic, uh, beast. Nancy: Your temperature drops, your heart rate drops. Sara Mednick: It basically gives your whole body a major rest. Your metabolic system switches into a repair mode and the, the guts also switch into a repair mode. So it's a huge, um, shift from being awake to being asleep. Nancy: And that’s what Sara studies– how that switch to repair mode might contribute to memory benefits, or emotional benefits. And Sara says that good sleep and rest can help strengthen those things, but there’s really no silver bullet to living a healthy life. Sara Mednick: It's everything that you're doing in your life to make sure you have really good balance between the forces that make you exert yourself and stress yourself out. And the forces that make you, um, Calm yourself down and restore yourself. MUS out
Nancy: Sara calls that restorative, restful state the downstate. Sara Mednick: My term, the downstate, refers to all of the restorative practices that we have to engage in on a regular basis to keep us fully restored and to keep our resources high and to keep us in a good, balanced, um, happy, strong state. The idea is that, you know, we are rhythmic animals and rhythms, give us two things. One is the upstate where we need to get out in the world and do things.And it requires a lot of energy to put on our clothes and go to work and, you know, deal with people… all these things. They require a lot of energy and a lot of resources. And what has to follow in a rhythm is that you have an upstate followed by a downstate where you can then restore all of those. Um, Resources that you used up in the upstate. Nancy: But, Sara says– and as I think we all know– our society really emphasizes the upstate. Sara Mednick: What we need to do is remember that we need to repair and we need to, you know, get back to a balanced state by spending a lot of time in the downstate to make sure that we're sort of ready for the next upstate. In society now we put a lot of emphasis on, well, what are you doing? Um, you know, how hard are you training or how are you training or what are you eating? Nancy: What that go go go mentality fails to take into consideration is, that the restorative work our bodies and minds do in this downstate… can actually lead to BETTER focus, and more energy. MUS
Sara Mednick: Say, you're just starting your workout. The first time it's incredibly difficult and energy exerting and, and when you're done, you're exhausted and you're breathing heavy and your body is sent into a stress mode. And what happens then is your Autonomic nervous system immediately starts to work to get you into the rest and digest mode. It restores all of your nutrients and energy resources. But what it also does is if you stay in that rest for a little bit longer than, you know, just kind of get in and get out. You actually top yourself up with more resources and more nutrients because your body's like, oh my God, that was so terrifying. I never wanna be at such a loss for [00:14:00] resources and so exhausted again. So your body actually gives you more resources. You get more glycogen and. you develop more ATP than you had before, so that the next time you can actually work out harder, you know, you could work out a little bit longer, you can get a little bit further along in your goal. And then the next time when you work out, you need to then have another downstate that doesn't just have a short downstate, but a extended downstate that gives you that extra bit of resources. MUS out
Nancy: Sara says this principle holds true across all kinds of day-to-day activities. Sara Mednick: When you're, you know, thinking. When you're doing learning or, you know, when you're in a classroom and you're suddenly learning information, you know, the amount of sleep that you have after your class is going to determine how well you do in terms of being tested. Right? So this is stuff that, you know, the downstate matters If you know, at, at equally, if not more than what you're actually doing, when you're in your upstate. Nancy: So, how can we take time to engage with the downstate in all the hullabaloo of our busy lives? MUS
Sara Mednick: The first place to look is in your breath. So usually what we're doing when we're in our day to day is we're breathing pretty rapidly and pretty shallowly. We're kind of speaking all the [00:16:00] way through our breath and not taking very deep breaths. When we're working, there's something called email apnea. Where you open up your email and you just stop breathing. Nancy: What the heck!? I totally get email apnea. Sara Mednick: It's a panic response, to the world where you suddenly get into this shallow breath or you just stop breathing. And so one of the most powerful ways to. counteract that is to have deep, slow breaths. I'm going to, um, intentionally do slow, deep breathing. And that shows a huge expanse, um, in, um, restore mode. And so there's many ways that you can do that. throughout your day, you know, when you're driving, [00:17:00] When you're in the store, when you're cooking, you know, when you're sitting there doing your email, you could do this, you don't need an app to do meditation, but you can do meditation practice, any of these restorative practices, they start with breath because the breath is so important to bring in that restorative response. Nancy: Even things like feeling loved and supported. Anything that makes you feel calm, creates that restorative response and helps you tap into the downstate in your everyday life. Sara Mednick: So being with friends, um, holding hands, being out in nature. You take in all the phytochemicals that are in the, um, woods that are helpful for your immune system. Um, and then also how you plan your day. So. What time do you exercise? What kind of exercise are you doing? Um, and what time do you eat? Uh, and what kind of foods are you eating? I guess really starting to think about yourself as a 24 hour cycling animal, everything that you do will help you, um, you know, tap into that rhythm and then resonate with it. MUS out
Nancy Jane Smith: Okay. So like, so much of this stuff is just like, this is helpful for you, you know, rest is good. Rest is important. But my gosh, even though I've devoted my life to this, and I know this is so important, I go kicking and screaming into [00:19:00] rest. Like it is something I don't wanna do. I don't wanna breathe. I don't, you know, I know I need to go outside and, you know, I do the things, but I sound like I sound awful, Sara Mednick: You sound human I, I am 100% with your sister. Nancy Jane Smith: but I'm just saying like, it's so hard and it drives me crazy, cuz I'm like this, I know this will help me, but I am such a buyer of the upstate Western push push push mentality. Sara Mednick: I mean, we are living in a world where. Absolutely, um, are driven to ignore our down states and we are praised, um, and, and validated [00:20:00] for working ourselves to exhaustion, um, and not having any sort of really good, um, relationship between our activity and repose. We lionize over work. We lionize, you know, burning the candle at both ends. I have such a hard time getting to bed on time. You know, I have such a hard time not watching another Netflix show. We live in this world of like more is better. So it's actually very important to think about, creating systems where when you are in that moment of having to make the decision, you don't have to actually make a decision. You just have a schedule. Nancy: For example, it’s 9:45 and I’m thinking about watching another episode of Love Island. BUT if I’m sticking to my schedule and I planned to go to sleep at 10PM, that scaffolding gives me incentive to honor my commitment to rest. Sara Mednick: I think putting as many of these kind of structures in place when you're awake and alert and in a good head, um, then when you get to that time where you actually have to, um, Be faced with the decision you've already made the decision, and this is just what you do. So, but it's, you know, it's hard for everybody. Nancy: But I was curious. As someone who studies rest and sleep… had Sara’s relationship to rest changed over time, as she studied the downstate? MUS
Sara Mednick: Well, I'm turning 50 Nancy Jane Smith: oh, I am too. Sara Mednick: Oh, congratulations. Nancy Jane Smith: You too. Sara Mednick: Yeah, that's awesome. I think I used to be able to tolerate a lot more upstate. Um, and I have far less tolerance now and I have a lot more, prioritization of the things that matter to me. So that's, I guess how things have changed is, you know, um, love matters, family matters mycareer, um, and mentoring matters these things. And, so,[00:28:00] I'm much better at being able to tell myself. what you know, is this, does this serve me? And ask myself that question and then if it doesn't, I'm okay with saying no and doing something that does serve me, I think is, and, and, and rest is definitely a mega part of that, right? Because, um, there's things that you have to sort of say no to. because they really feel like they're going against this natural wave of, you know, this is the amount of energy I have right now. And then I've gotta go into my downstate. And if I do this extra thing that doesn't serve me. So I think I've just become much way, way better at determining what does MUS out
The Happier Approach is sponsored by Self Loyalty School.
Self Loyalty School is designed for people who have tried all the things and are still struggling to quiet their high-functioning anxiety. It has small bite-sized lessons; delivered via a private podcast feed. Because there are daily bite-size lessons for you to listen to, it requires a daily re-commitment to Self Loyalty. Trust me, I've tried all the things, meditation, walking, exercise, coaching, and therapy, and they're all fantastic. But, I could never do them consistently until I built self-loyalty. I've been doing this work for over 20 years, and I FINALLY have figured out Self Loyalty is the key to quieting high-functioning anxiety. When I was finally loyal and kind to myself, I wanted to practice the things that helped. Without self-loyalty, I am pushing, hustling, trying to accomplish the next thing, and letting that Monger and my anxiety run the show. If you are intrigued—head over to selfloyaltyschool.com to learn more.
ACT III: Nancy: My conversation with Sara helped me to realize how important it is– for my health, my overall wellbeing, and even for my focus and productivity– to listen to the voice of my Biggest Fan when I need to prioritize rest.
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Nancy: Last we’d left off, I’d finally been able to quiet my Monger and let myself have a night of uninterrupted rest.
The next morning my alarm cat Calvin began our morning by tapping on my face from his perch on my nightstand. When I rolled over groggily, I saw that he had let me sleep in!! I felt fantastic!! And amazingly, my Monger was still silent.
Playing defense, my Biggest Fan stepped in to say—yay! You feel refreshed and ready to start the day—it wasn't your normal amount of sleep, but hopefully, you won't be exhausted and will still get a lot of writing done. Those words were enough to quiet my Monger—you will still be productive, was all she needed to hear. And that is the truth. The more I rest, drink water, move my body and eat healthy food, the more focused and productive I am.
Rest doesn't come naturally to me, but the more I can break my own rest rules and build self-loyalty, the less my HFA runs the show.
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Outro
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That’s it for this week! In our next episode we’ll talk to Jessica Snow– a meditation and imagination artist– who brings a sense of wonder and magic into everyday rest. That’s next time, on the Happier Approach.
Nancy: The Happier Approach is produced by Nicki Stein and me, Nancy Jane Smith. Music provided by Pod5 and Epidemic Sound. For more episodes, to get in touch, or to learn more about quieting High Functioning Anxiety you can visit nancy jane smith dot com. And if you like the show, leave us a review! It actually helps us out a lot.
Thanks to Dr. Sara Mednick for speaking with us today. You can learn more about Sara and buy her book The Power of the Downstate at saramednick.com. That’s S-A-R-A M-E-D-N-I-C-K dot com.
Take care
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