Episode 141: Setting Healthy Boundaries as an Act of Kindness
In today’s episode, I am talking with Randi Buckley, leadership mentor, and writer about setting healthy boundaries with kindness.
There are numerous definitions of boundaries.
One of them is that boundaries serve as expectation management. At its core, it’s quite simple: boundaries create an expectation for what I can expect from you and, conversely, what you can expect from me.
Healthy boundaries create healthy expectations and are truly essential for any kind of relationship—but people with high functioning anxiety really struggle with setting them for a number of reasons.
They think that people won’t like them.
There might be conflict.
It might mean they hurt someone’s feelings.
Ouch.
But when setting boundaries, any of the above can happen—but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t follow through. In fact, boundaries are one way we can be both clear and kind with others.
If that feels counterintuitive to you, I recommend giving this episode a listen. Today, I’m discussing the importance of boundaries with Randi Buckley.
Randi is a leadership mentor, author, and podcaster who offers a different way of thinking for something more. She is also the creator of the group- and self-led programs, Healthy Boundaries for Kind People and Maybe Baby. and works with wildly intelligent individuals and organizations, and is a curator of context, nuance, and discernment.
Listen to the full episode to find out:
Why using mind reading to keep the peace often leads to bigger blow-ups
What it means to carry the emotional weight for other people, how we naturally do it, and, more importantly, how to stop
How the break down of setting boundaries is more than just saying no
The difference between people-pleasing and kindness (and why one undermines boundaries while the other does not)
Resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Randi: I have many definitions for boundaries. So one of them is that boundaries are expectation management, and I think that's just being clear of what you could expect from what somebody can expect from you and what you can expect from somebody else, because then you're on the same page. If something wasn't similar, you have that moment to reconcile setting
Nancy: boundaries is way more than just saying No.
Having clear boundaries is something people with high functioning, anxiety struggle with boundaries mean, or they might not like me. There might be conflict. I might hurt someone's feelings. I'm going to have to be open and honest with them. All of those are true. And yet as today's guest Randy Buckley.
Clarity is an act of kindness and boundaries are the ultimate in clarity it's setting boundaries sounds stressful to you. I encourage you to give today's show a listen.
You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.
I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Randy Buckley has been teaching the class boundaries for kind people. For years. I took her course a couple of years ago and it opened my eyes to the nuance of boundary setting that often gets lost in the self-help personal development. Randy Buckley is a leadership mentor, author and podcaster.
She's the creator of healthy boundaries for kind people, the deep and maybe baby. She has been described as equal parts, Pema, Chodron, Sophia, Loren, and Clint Eastwood with us splash of George Carlin in this episode, Randy. And I talk about why using mind reading to keep the peace often leads to bigger blow ups, what it means to carry the emotional weight for other people and how we naturally do.
And how to stop the breakdown of setting boundaries. It's more than just saying no. And the difference between people pleasing and kindness, as Randy said, people pleasing, undermines boundaries.
Okay. So Randy Buckley is here with me today. I am so excited to have you hear from her. Cause she is one of she doesn't know this, but she has inspired my work a lot and is one of the people that I go to for wisdom.
Welcome
Randi: Randy. Oh, that's quite an introduction. Thank you for knowing my work at all. (laughter)
Nancy: She's also very humble. Randy is okay, so Randy is here. We're going to be talking about boundaries, which I know is something that a lot of us struggle with and in this month is our theme is control and boundaries have a lot to play in that.
Arena. So we're going to jump right in. So a lot of my clients deal with mind reading in the spirit of trying to keep the peace. When in reality, this just leads to bigger blow ups. How do you see this working in your expertise around boundaries?
Randi: There are so many assumptions that people will know our boundaries or that we know the boundaries of others.
To this, through the lens of boundaries, of course, we assume a lot and we assume incorrectly a lot and that's, that can be a lot of pain. And we think some people should just have common sense, or this is the common sense that we're all coming from the maybe even the same set of values or have the same understanding of situation.
But clarity is an act of kindness. And I think when we're trying to read minds, I think it's exactly for what you said, trying to keep the peace, or if somebody has had a very bad experience in the past, they're tiptoeing around somebody as not to ask or induce some sort of rage. So we just try to read minds has tried to bypass that step all together, but.
The risk is I believe that when reading minds, we don't actually know what we're getting into. Whether we're we think what somebody, we know it's somebody's boundaries would be what we think they should know ours. So there's a lot to open to interpretation and that's where we assign meaning that could be incredibly wrong.
But it gets us, it usually gets us into some trouble in the sense of pain.
Nancy: And so how do you, if you've grown up in an environment where that was the case, like where there might be a blow up, if you say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, how do you calm yourself? And how do you calm yourself enough to catch yourself, mind reading and change that dynamic.
Randi: I think awareness in and of itself is huge because once you are aware, then you can be conscious and intentional and deliberate with your next action. And so often we just go on. Our default mode, those tracks. I often compare it to, not that I cross country ski at all, but it reminds me of tracks in the snow.
It's a lot easier when you're skiing so I hear to cut those tracks in the snow than to have to leave your own tracks. So you can glide. And that mind reading are those tracks in the snow that are often really established well established. So we have to get off that particular track and say, okay, am I attempting to mind reading here in?
Is that actually going to be beneficial to the situation I want to have happen? So I think the first thing is awareness. And then you get to ask and I think so often we're afraid of asking in part because we're afraid what the answer will be, but I think more often than not people appreciate our asking. Even if we get the response of course. Or you should know or something like that, we cared enough to ask. I remember my dad saying to my mom a lot because they had two very different ways of relating. Sometimes he would, oh, he'd say Nancy, I can't read minds. Just tell me. And she was, she thought, you've done this a hundred times.
Why wouldn't why would it be. But now, but they came from very different ways. So I saw that clarity was an act of kindness.
Nancy: So when you talk about the asking, can you give me an example of what I, like how you would ask?
Randi: I think there are lots of ways you could ask, so it depends on the situation a little bit, but sometimes if you just want to clarify what you think, say, so just so I'm on the same page.
You want me to come by at four to pick you up as opposed to that being an assumption. And really that to me is where I set boundaries or expectation management. Many definitions for boundaries. So one of them is that boundaries are expectation management, and I think that's just being clear of what you could expect from what somebody can expect from you and what you can expect from somebody else, because then you're on the same page.
If something wasn't You have that moment to reconcile. Oh, I actually need you to be here and then you can figure it out because I think so often we have that assumption we don't ask, we try to mind read and then we carry it with us. And then when it didn't work out, arrgh why did they tell me my time or X, Y, and Z.
And then, we plant some seeds of resentment, which tend to get watered with each subsequent interaction.
Nancy: So what if you're dealing with someone who is passive aggressive, or you grew up with someone who was passive aggressive. So there was always the message. And then the underlying message.
What they really meant. How do you, I know,
Randi: I know exactly what you mean, and I have to say that I didn't see this in my nuclear family, but I definitely sent it, saw it, my extended family. And it was fascinating to me. I think you just say, okay. Clarifying, which is, I think it just goes back to clarifying and it doesn't have to be a, oh crap.
They're being passive aggressive. How do I interpret this? I think it just be okay. So what you're saying is this right? And just having a moment, the clarity, and then
Nancy: letting it go if they don't say, if they're like, oh no I don't need you to come today. it's raining, you can stay home, but really underneath they're like, I want her to come.
If you can clarify that and say I'm not coming...
Randi: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So I just want to make sure that I won't be here. And there's so much of that, and it leads to so much interpretation. And when dealing with wild, passive aggression, my MO is generally to go with what they say.
I might ask. I will ask me clarify, but even what they say, oh no, don't come. Something like that. I'm going to trust that they're making adult decisions. And so I will honor that decision with the hope being that if that was actually not what they meant in the future, they will tell me what they meant because I'm going to honor them.
Nancy: So it's retraining them in a sense,
Randi: right and ourselves, I don't have to interpret, they said this. I would like to trust that they are able to say what they mean. What they say very Dr. Seuss. Yeah.
Nancy: Cause then it's sitting with that uncomfortableness. Because I think we get something out of the, oh no.
What they're really meaning is this, I noticed I think about this, my husband and I. Have a dynamic. He was raised in that passive aggressive, and I was raised in the blunt, tell it like it is. And so when my mom says, no, don't come. He's oh no, she really wants us to come.
That's what she's really saying. And he won't ever believe what really comes out of people's mouths. And I think that's just a fascinating, cause it's so entrenched in his brain that people don't speak the truth.
Randi: Exactly. And that my parents that's come from the different backgrounds.
So it was very easy depending on what grandparents were dealing with, around what the expectation would be. And so I just wanted to be clear.
Nancy: Yeah. And to have the, I think to have that in your mind of what they're saying is that's what I'm going with, to have that clarity.
Randi: Right.
And I think it's a gift to people to honor them. Okay. That's what you're saying. I in, I want to be able to honor that other than undermining or second guessing that, right?
Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, because that is a lot of energy.
Randi: Yeah. A LOT of energy!
Nancy: So how did you get into boundary work?
Randi: It's something people often expect me to have this amazing story of how I had terrible boundaries and I have it actually, I grew up in a military family, so I was moving a lot and I saw the difference largely in my sister and I, my sister made moved to a new place and my sister immediately wanted to make friends.
Understandably. She was a little kid, one, definitely friends. And I think often she was much more, yeah. Flexible with her boundaries in order to connect with other people and make friends that felt more important to her. And I was much more okay with the, what those boundaries are, I didn't think in terms of boundaries at that point, this is a boundary, but I thought, oh no, you were probably have different interests so we can be nice to each other, but we're probably not going to start a friendship, a deep friendship.
And I watched that evolve in different ways. And she has given me permission to say this. So I'm not. Be trying anything, but she later on got into a series of relationships that were very unhealthy with men who did it honor her boundaries. And it was so the boundary work then was all about what I couldn't say to her because there were really intense situations where I would have probably, she probably would have cut me off at it actually said what I thought at the time.
And then I noticed at the same time that clients were dealing with parallel issues, maybe not to the same extreme or intensity. But, so I saw this extreme situations where boundaries were being honored. In what could be going on. And then we could apply that learning what, all the things I wish I could say to my sister, I started applying to my clients and then I started, I just went ahead and created a body of work out of it
Nancy: because it's called healthy boundaries for kind people, healthy boundaries,
Randi: yeah.
And my sister is amazing. She's a Spitfire, she's one of the kindest people you will ever meet. But for some reason, though, it changed those she’s still kind, but. People took a lot of advantage of that kindness and it didn't have to be that way
Nancy: at all, just because I know you have a difference between kind and nice.
Tell me that. Sure.
Randi: If I start going into a thesis, please cut me off. But I do think there's a profound difference between nice and kind and I'll preface that by saying I think nice gets a bad rap. Okay. I think nice could be manners. Nice. Can be nice for me. This is about making people, other people comfortable.
So it's hospitality. But kindness is about caring. About your values and their values and not letting other things get in the way. So if I have a strong value for compassion, I'm not going to let niceness me making the other people comfortable for in order for me to be able to be compassionate with you.
So whether that's a value of justice or all those other things, for me, kindness will always Trump. Nice, because that is far more important to me. That's something I just have, I deeply value that. So kindness or excuse me, niceness can get in the way. And there's certainly nothing wrong with bringing somebody a cup of coffee or something, saying, please, and thank you.
But it's when it starts to override kindness or it gets in the way of a healthy relationship, that's where I started to have an issue. So I, my really quick thing I say is niceness is about. Not making waves. And kindness is really more about changing the world.
Nancy: Ooh. I love that. Wow.
Oh good. That's really cool. Because you're right. I had heard you say that difference, but I hadn't because the nice does get a bad right. And and sometimes it deserves it. Yes. Yeah. But not always. Yeah. But I like the, the way you couch it with the other people, it's really helpful because I think that is I think that is a difference, and I know a lot of people, that's why I always was attracted to healthy boundaries for kind people.
Cause that kind of yeah, I want to be kind but boundaries, that doesn't go together in my mind. but it does in your framework.
Randi: And then, and when I start working with folks, that's usually one of the first questions I ask them. Okay. Tell me what boundaries means to you. And more often than not, it's this horrible thing, which if you're kind or where you value kindness or compassion or whatever your values are, you're not going to do those things that have you feel unkind, so if boundaries feel like this unkind, nasty thing or an imposition, or that you have to be a real jerk in order to do it.
There's no way you're going to have them. You value the you value kindness far more. But what I'm trying to, my general thing is boundaries are an act of kindness to the point we made know. Which helps people really, it's almost like giving people an instruction manual to get you at your best. Oh, okay.
This is the framework, how it has the optimum optimization or functioning, and I'd like you to be able to get that. And to me, that's an act of kindness.
Nancy: So what brings people oh, I am having boundary problems and I'm sure they're not all the way to where your sister was.
They're more, further down, but what are some examples of people being like this isn't working for me anymore?
Randi: One thing I had not anticipated and ends up being really big and I hadn’t anticipated because it wasn't my experience, but relationships with mothers seem to be really Impacted by a lack of boundaries.
So relationships with mothers, family relationships when boundaries are between work and home, start to feel very blurred, feel like they're not able to speak up for themselves or start to feel like a doormat or have felt like a doormat forever. And they heard there's a way to feel different .
I think that's really. Comes down to when you're just tired of the situation being what it's bad. You hope you have some hope. So we take that up and we run with it. Cause it absolutely can be different.
Nancy: Do you think people can do boundaries if they don't believe it? . If that, like I have to come to you saying I really, I know it's boundaries.
That's my problem.
Randi: Oh no. I think they can, because I think what they find out is actually it isn’t. One of the things I tell my clients is if somebody tells you they don't believe in boundaries, believe them. (laughter) Because that probably means they aren’t going to honor yours, but what we do is we often then redefined boundaries to something that's quite not just palatable, but sometimes you crave Ooh, actually that would be amazing.
So often we don't recognize this or whatever's going on as the need for boundaries or for better boundaries. But once we define it as such. We make it something that is aspirational and attainable because it's
Nancy: I even think about my own life, instead of being the clear of, I want to sit here and read this book for the next 30 minutes
I'll come down and just, and do something else or putz around. I don't engage with my husband. Or I'll sit there and I'll not tell him what I'm doing. And he's Hey, I thought we were going to watch a show or something. And I'm like, oh no, I want to read this book. And then I get testy about it.
But it's because I say, I want to sit here and read this book for 30 minutes and it's so simple when you do it,
Randi: And it gets exhausting and sometimes it feels why do I always have to be the one who takes the initiative? And I don't know if that's the case that you're speaking about, but I think sometimes we're exhausted for always being the one who has to do the work. Then it's not fair. And my thought is, if it matters to you, it's worth it.
If it has meaning if it matters to you, even if you're the one doing it more often than not, or more than your fair share of whatever that is. It's worth it because it's important to you.
Nancy: Yeah. Because a lot of times that comes up because I'm not owning that. I want to sit here and read the book. I'm vague, I know I don't want to watch a show with him and I want to read the book, but I haven't really owned that yet in that being kind to myself to say, this is what I want to do.
So I'm going to own it instead of let me yeah. Putz around, over here doing other stuff. I don't know right now if that's clear, but
Randi: oh, I get that. Absolutely. And sometimes we don't know, you might not be owning it and you might not be ready to like, yes. Yeah. Oh, I'm not being productive. So it's almost hard to commit to it.
When you feel like maybe you should be doing something
Nancy: that is more likely the problem.
Randi: There are a variety of scenarios
Nancy: On your Instagram that you talked about carrying the emotional weight for other people. Yeah, and I love that phrase. And I hadn't really thought about that is a lot of what my clients do, but I hadn't really thought about it like that. So can you tell me, what does that look like and how it hurts us?
Randi: Absolutely. I see people trying to protect other people a lot from pain disappointment. So they try to carry the burden for them. They try to, I say, carry emotional weight of others. We try to protect them from having to feel it or process it. And that's painful for us because it's not ours. And I think it's feels like an act of kindness or compassion, but we're not letting them, if we try to lift that and carry it, take it off their shoulders or off their plate.
They're not getting the full experience that they might need to. Be with it to process it, to decide they have at the decisions really to heal from that experience. So what happens is we know when we haven't worked on something, it comes right back around until we get it again. Or until we actually, oh, it keeps coming back up.
But that's painful for us then, because we're trying to carry something. That's not ours. You take disproportionate responsibility for something that we might not have control over. And I know your theme is control. So we're trying to control something that is not ours to control, and we do it because we're trying to be a good person.
We do it because we're trying to be sensitive. Maybe they've had a lot going on. I think it's important to see the distinction of seeing. Or the distinction of, we can recognize somebody's pain. We can see it. We can be with it without having to take it on as our own. And I think so often folks who value compassion, say I see this, so I shall carry it for them.
And that's a very big difference
Nancy: and we do it in subtle ways. It's like it doesn't have to be the big oh, someone's grieving and I'm going to carry their grief for them or my kid fell. And so I'm going to, comfort him. It's little tiny ways that shows up in our marriages and in our relationships where we protect people.
Randi: And that's, and I don't want to, three, there's a lot of nuance in that too. I'm not saying, let people fend for themselves. There are situations, there's a lot of nuance, but I think, and I love the idea, as you and I have talked about context, nuance and discernments are important to me.
So I think it's really important to look at the nuance and context and discern what's right for you. But I think more often than not, we in those little situations, it's almost like. It sounds like the inverse of microaggression, sort of other people it's we're constantly taking that on in order to protect somebody.
Yeah.
Nancy: And some of that comes up in the, even in the like back to our question before about the I totally lost it. The need Asking for what you need so that I would like, oh, can you clean the kitchen? And instead, and he's going to be like, oh, I have so much to do, blah, blah, blah. I don't have time to clean the kitchen rather than just letting him struggle with that because I have so much to do too.
And I really need the kitchen done. I'll make room in my calendar to get the kitchen done. On top of everything I have to do instead of being like, okay, he's going to have to figure it out. It's going to be uncomfortable for him. And that's okay. And I think that happens all the time.
Randi: Absolutely.
Absolutely. And, we could also just say, you know what, maybe the kitchen doesn’t get cleaned right now, a lot of other things, but we have this, it has to happen. Or it has illness illnesses, black, white. It happens where it doesn't they do it, or I have to do it. And I think when we make those little tiny decisions throughout the day It builds up because we're all here I go again.
Let's take care of it. Ah, it's not worth bothering somebody else. It's not worth the headache, but that adds up.
Nancy: And I think that's having the awareness of why am I doing this now? Is it because, my inner critic is telling me I have to clean up the kitchen or is it also just because I want to protect them?
I think that's another question to be asking how much we when we're used to doing that, mind reading that fits right in.
Randi: Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of that boils down to when I call the pathology of have crappy boundaries or for boundary challenges. It's really, we have a fear of disappointing others.
We have a fear of missing out. We have questions around worthiness. And for me a lot, or we've never seen boundaries model, or you can have them, those are my four biggies, but to me, they all boil down to my fifth one, which is fear for, and thinking if I don't clean the kitchen, they're going to get frustrated and, fast forward a long time they leave.
So it's almost like we're constantly trying to be saying people's good graces to protect them, but also to protect ourselves.
Nancy: That's very well said
I know in the work I've done with clients on boundaries, they can set the boundary, but then that's just the fricking beginning. So much more to it than that. Can you talk a little bit to that?
Randi: Sure. So I think sometimes it feels like so much work to set the boundary, whether you've finally got the words out.
. So it feels like you've climbed this mountain and you're at the top and one and done. And what usually happens, particularly in pre-existing relationships, meet, a spouse, a partner, a family, as opposed to somebody who you run into at the store before, when we used to be able to go to stores.
Because we're in we're instituting of boundary, or I like to say nurturing a boundary, it is cultivating and nurturing the boundary, but. What often happens is pushback because either people didn't hear you, they didn't understand it. They're confused by it and went completely over their head.
You'd never said it before, so they didn't really recognize it. But what happens then is we tend to get pushed back and say, forget it. See, they said, no. They said no to my boundary and push back. I think it's a couple of things here. I think it's really important to know, in my opinion, pushback as part of the process.
Push back means, oh, wow. What you said was met with something, even if it wasn't the desired response you wanted it, it found a home. It's almost like a radio or a radio signal. If I'm an antenna, you may not have gotten the clear message, but it gives us a chance to reiterate and be perhaps even more clear.
So often I think when people get pushed back, they say, Declare a boundary, they get pushed back and they say, see, I can't have you. I can't have boundaries. They won't allow me, which I'll get to in a second. Or they won't be able to give me my boundaries or something that spirit. So push back is part of the process and pushback, usually doesn't feel.
In my experience, but I think we can reframe it as well. I was heard possibly for the first time or something got through to where it made sense to them. Maybe not total sense, but that was heard so we can reiterate and we can revisit we can discuss whatever that is. And sometimes it just needs a reminder, but so often, and pre-existing relationships because they'd never, this was new.
It didn't really register. It didn't really register.
Nancy: Yeah, because none of the reasons you gave for why it didn't register were I didn't want to do it or that they didn't want to do it, or they didn't care.
Randi: And that could be a reason. They're right. More often than not exact, it's just, they were confused or sometimes we tune out, right? Like the Peanuts. Wah Wah Wah. So I think that is a lot of it, but then we're so quick to say, forget it. I can't have it. So you set a boundary, you might feel good that you did it. You get pushed back instead of abandoning that boundary, you get to show you're serious about it.
Because if we don't honor our own boundaries, why would anybody else honor it? Because they don't see it. There's no role modeling of what that boundary actually is. And. And this was what I was referring to. I think so often people think others have to like the boundaries or they have to get buy-in from other people to be able to have the boundary and no water at the boundary.
They don't have to like it. And sometimes people who don't like it initially will actually like it later. Sometimes it's new for them at first, but then they really come to respect the fact that you were able to say what was right. And how would you actually gave me this clear instruction because you value our relationship.
So I think it's not this, it might feel good initially. And then if we talk about my work boundary hangovers, and just be like afterwards, and you might have to take a little break and that doesn't mean you let up your boundaries, but you don't necessarily have to actively pursue it. Just maintain and, let yourself just if you overworked the muscle, let it rest right.
And go back out there.
Nancy: Yeah, I really, because it's sitting with the uncomfortableness of giving them their time to respond. Giving them their time to process and do take it in, I can remember, and this happened. 15 years ago, I can remember driving up. I was telling my mentor that I was leaving the practice to go start my own.
And I knew it was not going to go over well, and as I was driving up there, it's something just hit me. And I was like, she's allowed to be upset about this. Absolutely. And it was just like this totally freeing moment of Wow. Like she's, I don't have to make this all better for her. Like she's allowed and she probably will be upset in that makes sense.
That she'd be upset. And even if it doesn't matter because she's allowed to have that reaction. And that was just such an aha for me to recognize, I didn't have to justify it or prove that it was okay. I could just be like, this is what I'm doing and you're going to be uncomfortable. And here we go.
Randi: How respectful of you that you let her have that reaction and recognize that. That might be a natural response that you get that. And it was also a great example, what we were talking about earlier for you not trying to carry the, her emotional weight. I'm maybe the practice, I'll be on call or you can, oh, let me give you a necklace.
Yeah.
Nancy: Yeah. And we do that jump in and try to make it better before we even give them a chance. Because we're uncomfortable before we even know if they're uncomfortable, we're already, or I am already jumping in to make it better,
Randi: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Trust ourselves that if somebody is going to be upset, we will handle it.
We will be able to, we weren't the children. Or no longer the child that may have been overwhelmed by that situation or scared, but that we hopefully probably have better coping skills. Now then if something comes up, we'll be able to dance in the moment with whatever that is in handling.
Nancy: Yeah.
Yeah. Cause that's another one of my favorite reminders is I'm not eight years old. Yes. And then every, it is fascinating to me that every time I say that to myself, you're 47. It's whoa, like it's I forget. Yeah. Cause I'm in, I'm an eight year old in my head, when I'm thinking about it.
And then when I read my oh yeah.
Randi: I'm 47 too so I totally get it.
Nancy: We touched on this already. I still want to go back to it because people pleasing is such a big part of my client's world and where they get a lot of ease to their anxiety is by making sure the rest, pushing back and making sure the rest of the world is okay. And I do a lot of talking about being kind to yourself.
That's a big. Part of my work. So you say again on Instagram, because I love your Instagram where you said people pleasing, undermines kindness. Yes. Which I think is the opposite of what a lot of people think. And so tell me more.
Randi: I have a very rebellious nature, (laughter)
Nancy: which is one reason that I love your stuff
Randi: I have to point that out. So I think ultimately people pleasing is about. When you base your self-worth on other people's reactions, as opposed to what you feel based on your own reaction, you really look outside yourself to see, to measure your worthiness. And so we people please. So that is an attempt at and I'm not, I don't want to be right.
People pleasers. I think we all have that tendency and there's, it's a survival mechanism for a lot of people and we've learned it, but we don't necessarily have to carry that. So I just. Put that out there that you're not a bad person. I don't think you're terrible. If you are a people pleaser.
I think it's very common in people. Pleasers have really big challenges with boundaries when we're people pleasing, our kindness might not be as authentic as it could be. One for people pleasing. We're doing this to try to control their reaction as opposed to necessarily coming from our. It doesn't mean there might not be overlap or it can't be both, but it's undermining our kindness because we're trying to make us be safe as opposed to just act an act of kindness for the sake of being kind.
So that's the big version, big umbrella version of that. I could just dissect it a little bit more, but that's a big wake up call for a lot of people pleasers. We rationalize people pleasing as I'm trying to be nice indoor kind, nice endocrine. And I think those are both in there, but really if we're trying to manipulate a situation is that act of kindness.
So I want people's kindness to be free, to be kind, just to be free to do what feels like an expression of their kindness, not to necessarily manipulate the situation even. Feels like it's for protection it's to try to avoid a response, your kindness can just be without having to have any sort of payback, so to speak sort of result of that kindness.
And that's what I mean by that. I love that
Nancy: because it is, it is a form of control without recognizing it, like it's and, control gets such a negative connotation, but it's a sense of just taking back control of your environment. The people pleasing that I can. I can feel more the master of this situation. If I know I can people please, when in reality you're turning it on it’s head, you could be the master of this situation by being clear and setting boundaries and only doing things that are coming from your heart.
Randi: Exactly. For me, I. I, I know sometimes I've been on the other end where people have been trying to be nice. So they invited me along, something they really want me to go along to that feels awful to find that out later disingenuous, it felt, and I get what they're trying to do, but I'd much rather somebody not trying to people please me, and be honest, or, just be themselves or not have to put out this phony act.
Just in order to try to protect my feelings cause that I've been on the other end of that. And it's no fun either. So I absolutely agree with you that it is an attempt to control and get that good, get good feedback about ourselves, right?
Nancy: Yeah. And that in is also the, like the person who invited you along, wasn't allowing you to have your emotional was picking up your emotional baggage rather than letting you be disappointed. If you were going to be, they don't even know you were going to be disappointed.
Randi: To be honest, I would have been disappointed to me.
I'd rather be disappointed than somebody being disingenuous with me. Authentic. I can deal with that. I can heal from that. I'm sure it can heal from both. That just feels a lot cleaner in my world.
Nancy: Yeah. That's interesting. Do you think that boundaries can be too strong?
Randi: Yes. So when I do the healthy boundaries, kind of people work, I have lots of analogies and metaphors I use, and one of them is boundaries are like a spine and they can bend and flex to support you.
Because I think we have this idea about boundaries of once you've drawn your line in the sand, that's it's just. Page almost, but then circumstances might change. You might you might not want to see a certain person at the family reunion, but you might want to see everybody else because we don't want to see that one person.
We won't give ourselves the experience of seeing everybody else. That's a real nutshell version of an example I use, but boundaries can be, if they're too. Stiff like a spine that can't move with you. And so you're really stuck in this rigid situation that you are, if your boundaries are too firm that don't have an, you're not getting any of them for context, nuance or discernment.
We know that spines when they're flexible. So my sister is an acupuncturist and I use to do Ayurveda years. And we, so we talk about. Healing traditions around the world. And in both of those traditions, they say something to the effect of you are as healthy as your spine. And there are certainly folks for whom that is not the case.
And that probably don't appreciate that. But for other people that is the case. And so I see boundaries like a spine. They give you, they let you stand tall. They provide support, but they can move in the ways you want to move. And allow that to happen. So when our boundaries are too firm first of all, we're not recognizing growth or evolution in our life.
Think situations may have changed, we may have changed and it really then limits what we are allowing ourselves to do, or the type of relationships we can have with other people.
Nancy: Awesome. I'm glad I asked that question. Because I love your that's. One thing I love about your work is there's in the coaching and therapy world boundaries is full of shame and, super strong messages, like the example of the family you gave, don't go see your family if they're not supporting you.
And there isn't any room for that gray nuance stuff that I think is necessary. Healthy boundaries. So that was one thing that really drew me to your work, because I know there is, I have felt the shame from boundary work of, people saying stop doing that. You need to set a firm boundary and what's wrong with you that you can't, and that it can get turned back on you really quickly.
Instead of being the kindness around it, right?
Randi: And there are some things you might be very black and white about, and that might not never change, but if they aren't there aren't, be, find, understand what those boundaries are so that you feel like your values are being honored.
And then to me, that's another definition that our boundaries, our values turned into. And so we can then live that thing in our lives and make sure that other people are honoring that too. So I think there's a whole lot of nuance in there has to be because we are nuanced creatures.
Nancy: Because if I say to my husband, I went to read this book at six o'clock every night.
That's my boundary. I'm making this up, obviously he may say, oh but I have a meeting. It starts at six. I need, what about the kids or whatever, and then, but so we can negotiate that, but I've still set my values, my intention out there on the line of what I want.
Randi: Your value is to have that time and, reading and self care, whatever that is for you, that you're doing by reading at six o'clock every night, and sometimes another value might trump it for the health of your children. So it's not that we're so rigid of, no, this is my time. And if it, if you're constantly interrupted, it certainly feels like you have to be rigid and there might be times where you need to be a little bit more rigid, but if we can ebb and flow with what's important to you.
We're set.
Nancy: Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. So tell me more about how people can work with you with healthy boundaries for kind people and where you are with all of that
Randi: work. Sure. I'm currently running the healthy boundaries for kind people cohort right now. I tend to run it once a year.
It's about a three and a half month program that we do At this point, at the time we're recording this, we don't know what next month looks like. What's happening. When, so my anticipated running it again is in January, 2020, but I am on Instagram in, I also train people to do the work, train people, to facilitate healthy boundaries for kind people, whether in their home with their clients And their office with themselves.
Some people just want to go way, you want to take a deep dive into the work. So we do the healthy ventures for kind of people to sole traitor coaching, facilitator certification. And I do work one-on-one with folks, but I also have many coaches or folks who have done that training who are, I've put my stamp of approval on their understanding of the.
Oh, okay.
Nancy: Okay, cool. So you have certified people, not certified, but trained people in the healthy boundaries for kind work that you can refer people to. Yeah. And then can anyone do the facilitator training or do they have to have a coach. A license or
Randi: I prefer somebody who's taken healthy boundaries for kind people.
The course. But if you're willing to do a little bit of work to come up to speed on some of the general thing, cause it helps once you've applied that work yourself, what it looks like. And to know if that's what you really want. Spent a lot of time on, get to know me a little bit. It's possible, but generally I prefer that people have done the core curriculum.
Nancy: And then another thing that I originally got attracted to for was the maybe baby, do you still do that?
Randi: Yeah.. Thank you for asking. It's very dear to me. Maybe Baby is a program that I put myself through and then created for folks who were ambivalent about motherhood that heard the whisper of maybe.
And that was very much my case. I was not, I'd like to kids. I worked at a camp for 30 years. But I'd certainly w I did not want to become a mom. I want to, I used to joke around people and made them a little uncomfortable. They said, what are you having kids? And I'd say, I just want to be the rich eccentric, I was not fulfilling one of those that they didn't ask me more questions, but It's a really big question.
There are very few places. I think you could turn to where you have unbiased conversation. So maybe journey is something that I work with people one-on-one, but I also have a self-study if they want to do it on their own to find out what is true for you. And then how can you lean into that truth?
All the more, because there's so many fears about motherhood. What if we actually regret it later? I don't re or if I decide now, or, what if I don't regret having kids or just because I regret having kids with, if I regret not having kids or becoming a parent, but everybody in our lives generally has a hope or wish that we do, or, oh, it'll change your mind.
Everybody has this bias. So it's really important to me that women have. As unbiased as possible space to explore that if you are in a partnership with somebody and that's how you want to potentially obtain parenthood, that at least, where you stand B before, I think somebody feel like they have to make that decision together, which if you're in a partnership, it's probably good to consult.
We talked about expectation management, but it's really nice to know where you are, where you stand first. Yes. So maybe baby is very dear to me
Nancy: Because that I had already made my decision not to have kids when I've saw Maybe Baby, And I was very like, I don't want to have kids. I don't want to have kids.
I don't want to have kids, but then when I hit my mid thirties, there was the whisper that came and that was like maybe. And you just made that new, normal, just seeing what you were writing about maybe baby at the time. It just normalized that for me, that I can still make this decision and it's okay.
That I still have that whisper. Absolutely. That was so refreshing.
Randi: Oh good. Because I think if you've ever had an ambivalence or you're somebody who deals with ambivalence sometimes. Ambivalence will always be a part of your equation. So we're always looking for this perfect answer that I have no doubt or, we care other people say that.
I did decide that was true for me to have a child and even going into, I had an emergency C-section, but even going into that, and they're still like and at that point, it was pretty much happening, but I really want to be clear on that though. I don't have this secret idea of making everybody see the light. This is the right path for you. I think if we honor, what's true for us in any context around parenthood boundaries, the whole world just goes a little bit more into alignment because we're a greater truth in general.
So that's really important to me and I, and let me just say, I think women who are not direct parent are some of the most undervalued people on the planet. Oh, absolutely. It's a huge role. And it's so important. And I think it's a lot of us think about some of our favorite women in our lives.
They're those people who could be that person to us.
Nancy: Yeah, because it is a because it still comes up, I'm well past giving birth, but I'll, every now and then I'll be like, oh, maybe we should adopt, or I have all this extra caregiving. And I think about your program, even though I didn't do it, but I still think no, this is normal.
It's okay to be, to have this. And we're going to figure out ways. And that was the cool thing. Now that I just last night, like we get together every quarter with them. Nieces and nephews, and they're all, my oldest, my youngest is going to turn 18 tomorrow. So they're all in college and they want to get together with us and play games on zoom is just the best, that, and that I could have made that an intention to fulfill that, because I wanted to be.
The cool, eccentric aunt and I'm not there, but the rest of it, and so I think that, yeah, I just thank you for doing that. And I, if anyone is interested, it's a awesome program and I'm so glad. Because there isn't anything like that out there. Because I looked.
Randi: I was looking. And so that's why I created it.
And, I want to talk to my mom, but since you'd be having a good year met, of course she wanted a grandchild. You'll miss it late and you'll regret it later. I remember hearing that and thank you for honoring that. I do think it's really important. And thank you for being that person to your nieces and nephews.
And, motherhood is not just about children. Regenerative creatures. And that comes out of, creation and need to be nurturing or whatever that
Nancy: definition is. Yeah. And it does, and then maybe baby even goes into the boundaries. I'm saying like, you can see how those are connected, right?
Randi: For me, everything boils down to boundaries. It's really the infrastructure for how we want to live. So that is. That's very key for me.
Nancy: Oh, thank you so much, Randy, for giving us a little intro into boundaries. I know you have a ton more to say. So tell us where people can find you.
Randi: Sure. My website is probably the best place, Randy, with an eye Randibuckley.com and on Instagram I, Randy dot Buckley.
Yeah, those are the two best.
Nancy: Awesome. And I will have those links in the show notes to everything. And thanks again for taking the time to chat with us.
Randi: What a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's such a great conversation.
Nancy: There were so many wonderful takeaways from the show I learned so much, but the part I want to revisit is at the end, when she talks about people, pleasing and kindness, because it's hard to admit that while our desire to please might appear as if it's coming from an altruistic place, it is most likely coming from a place of control, controlling their reaction or controlling the conflict.
It's not from a genuine grounded place. This is so hard to see in ourselves. And it is so important to start recognizing where we're human and where we do really human things based on the lessons we learned growing up and what we've learned throughout our lives, being aware of our motivations and being honest with ourselves all back to that self loyalty is so important.