Episode 157: Unhooking the Lie that You Need to be Mean to Yourself
In this episode, I chat with my friend Jamie In this episode, Jamie about her anxiety and how her Monger shows up in her life, and ways your Monger might show up in your life, too.
For those of us with high functioning anxiety, the voice of our inner Monger is loud.
It’s the voice that tells us we’ll never succeed.
It’s the voice that tells us we’re an imposter and we’re mere moments away from being found out.
It’s an internal voice of belittling and nastiness. It consistently makes us feel like we aren’t enough.
For those of us with exceptionally loud Mongers, we can’t WAIT for the day that our Monger disappears. And while we’d like to silence that inner critic once and for all, what happens if you feel like you’d never get anything done without your Monger? What do you do then?
That’s exactly what my dear friend Jamie told me… and it sparked an epiphany. I needed to get to the root of why my own Monger was so belittling, shaming, and mean—and why I believed that I needed that voice. In this episode, Jamie and I are chatting about her anxiety and how her Monger shows up in her life, and ways your Monger might show up in your life, too.
To learn more about the Monger, listen to Episode 110: The Voices In Your Head—The Monger
Listen to the full episode to find out:
How Jamie brings her own sense of humor to the many rules and rigidities we have in dealing with our anxiety
The different ways that our Monger can show up: mean and relentless or critical and pushy and ways our Monger can shame us and keep us stuck in all areas of our lives
How Jamie realized that her Monger would never fully go away but instead she could make her part of the team
Resources mentioned:
+ Read the Transcript
Nancy: Have you ever had a conversation with someone that sparked an aha moment that helped you see yourself in a whole new light? I had one of those conversations a couple of years ago with a dear friend of mine after I'd done a presentation on mongers. First, let me back up a little bit. For years, I taught about the monger, and I was fascinated by this concept of the inner critic because my inner critic was driving me crazy. She was constantly talking to me, and constantly telling me what to do, and constantly making me feel like crap. I'd done some research on what to do with the monger, and I was teaching about it and talking about it in a variety of different places, but none of it was really working for me in my own life. But, I hadn't admitted that to myself. I guess a part of me was just hoping one day it would click and, poof, my monger would be gone.
So, back to the conversation. I was doing this presentation at a local wine bar on the subject of mongers. It was an open presentation to the public, but a number of my friends came there to support me. And after the presentation, one of my closest friends, Jamie, came up to me to say, "Oh, my gosh. Love the presentation. You're an amazing presenter. And I'm not going to do anything you said because I really need my monger. If I didn't have my monger, I wouldn't get anything done." We laughed, and joked, and ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, and we went about our business.
Then, later as I got home, I realized Jamie was right. I really believed I needed my monger, too. I had this secret love affair with my monger. After that conversation, I realized all the material I was sharing, it wasn't working. All the stuff I was talking about, it wasn't fixing the problem for me, and it wasn't going to one day magically, poof, make my monger disappear. So, that was when I decided to go on a quest and figure out how to solve this monger problem, how to really get to the root of why she was so belittling, shaming, and mean, and why I believed I needed that voice.
I give Jamie the credit for helping me get honest with myself so I could get to the root of this monger problem. It was through that conversation that I then wrote The Happier Approach. So, I wanted to bring Jamie back and just chat with her about her monger, and anxiety, and all the things that we talk about on this podcast.
You're listening to The Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.
Jamie and I gathered on my front porch. It was a beautiful fall day, and you'll hear the birds and the cars driving by because I just wanted kind of a chit-chat with my friend. Nothing with fancy microphones and no crazy intensive questions, just two friends gathering to talk about anxiety, mongers, rules, regulations, and all the things in between. I hope you will enjoy this conversation.
Nancy: So, how would you say your inner critic monger motivates you?
Jamie: I would say it's one of those like everybody's depending on you, you got to get this done. If you don't get it done, kids aren't going to have their uniform to wear for soccer. Or if you don't get it done, people are going to see the piles of dog hair in all the corners of the house and across all major surfaces of the house, floors. You better get it done because you'll look like a goofball if you don't.
Nancy: So, highly critical and motivating.
Jamie: I don't know about critical, like you're a dummy kind of, like you're so stupid kind of thing. I got somebody in there saying, "Dude, you're running out of time. Get it done." It's more of like you're going to look like a fool if you don't do whatever it is you need to do, or your kids are showing up without their teeth brushed, or whatever.
Nancy: Yeah, it's more, as we were talking about before, the people pleasing-vein than you are a terrible person, more what will they think.
Jamie: Yes, yes. Reflects poorly, and you look like an incompetent boob.
Nancy: I want to jump in here real quick and say I believe everyone has a monger. And it was through talking about The Happier Approach that I realized some of us have a monger who's like a demon. She is mean, relentless, and unforgiving. She is constantly telling us that we have to get it done or we will fail. Then, some of us, like Jamie, have a monger who was driving, and pushing, and critical, but more like a pushy teacher than a demon.
Jamie: I would never relax or pause if I couldn't sit down while there was stuff out because there's always stuff out. And it can stay out and I can stress myself out about getting it done, or I can sit down and watch a show with my family and the dishes will be there later. They're not going anywhere.
Jamie: But, Dave was telling me that ... He's like, "You are such an enigma," because we have the dishwasher that has the rack at the top where you can put all the silverware in all nice and neat. I save all the silverware till the end, because it drives me bananas because I have a very rigid way about how I put the silverware in the dishwasher, which Dave was like, "The counters are covered in clutter, and you're organizing the knives in the dishwasher." I was like, "Well, I hate it when I get them all organized and then somebody has a piece of toast, and there's one more knife, and I don't have room for it in the knife section."
Jamie: So, I'd rather let everything sit out, come to a final stopping point, and say, "Okay, it's the end of the day. No more knives are coming in and out." I can organize all the knives, soup spoons, big forks, little forks, teaspoons, and then coffee-type ... demitasse spoons at the end, big to little. "Dave was like, "I don't even know what to say."
Nancy: But, that brings you joy.
Jamie: Yes, I like seeing. He was like, "You can have dog hair everywhere and crap all over the counters, but all your knives are in the knife spot and all your forks in the fork spot." And I was like, "Yes, but that's how they get clean. If you just put them in willy-nilly, then when I pull them out, there's still peanut butter on some stuff. So, yeah.
Nancy: Would you say you have a lot of rules? Rigidities.
Jamie: If I'm going to do it, I'm going to do it right. So if it sits in a pile on the dining room table for six months, I'm okay with that as long as it's not in my way. Because if I'm going to do a project, I want to do it right, and I don't want to do it half-ass. So, I'd rather it sit there if it's not something that's very pertinent. I'd rather it sit there and get done when I have the time to get it done. Now, saying when I have the time, that'll be when I'm 70.
Nancy: Right, right, right, right.
Jamie: But, I'm not just going to kind of just cram it into the cabinet and put it away just to have it out of sight because I still need to do it. Then, I know it's sitting in the cabinet in a disheveled mess, so I have to get it back out of the cabinet, put it back out on the dining room table even just to start. So, I'd rather just leave it there, now I need to do it. I see it. I know I need to do it. And I may not get to it for a couple of months, but that's okay. I'll get there. I just don't want to do it haphazardly and haven't done half-ass. So, I'd rather it sit around and-
Nancy: And if it's out of sight, it's out of mind?
Jamie: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Dave's like a stuff it in the closet, get it out of sight, nothing to see here.
Nancy: Right. Yes.
Jamie: If people are coming over, yes, I lik the house to look nice and organized and stuff. But, I mean, if there's my makeup bag sitting out on the counter, people know I wear makeup. It's not a big deal. Just a makeup bag. But, Dave likes totally clear counters and ... So that's just ...
Nancy: What is the right way then? Who determines the right way in the sense of like-
Jamie: Whoever gets there first.
Nancy: But not between you and Dave, but in your brain.
Jamie: Oh. Oh.
Nancy: What makes it the right way? Is it order? Is it efficiency?
Jamie: I would say it's order, like laundry. Having all the laundry done would be like washed, folded, and put away. But, I can usually get to the wash, dried, in a basket, but that whole folding ... Which I love folding laundry. I find it very relaxing. I have a little board, and I put shirt out on the board and you flap the flaps and it folds it up into this perfect little square.
Jamie: Then, I totally Marie Kondoed. This is one of those things. Yes, there may be 27 dishes in my sink, but the shirts that I did wash, fold, and put away are very organized because they're in a file system versus stacked. They're flipped.
Nancy: Oh, okay.
Jamie: So, you can kind of dig through your shirts and see all the different colors and-
Nancy: Oh, wow.
Jamie: ... whatever you're doing. Right, crazy pants. If you were to walk in my house, you would not think that my drawers would look like that. But, that would be lovely to have the time to do that. But, I mean, I never have time to totally get everything folded, and so we're always looking for soccer uniforms in the clean laundry basket. It's always clean, but it's just not folded and put away.
Nancy: And until you can fold it with the board-
Jamie: Yeah, if I'm going to fold it's-
Nancy: It has to be with ...
Jamie: ... got to be with the board, and neat, and tidy. Otherwise, I'm just kind of wasting my time. Why fold it if it's not going to fit in the drawer where it's supposed to go?
Nancy: Right. Okay. Fascinating. Because the part I find fascinating is we all have those rules and rigidities. So when someone says, "Oh, you're a type A person ..." There are things you are type A about.
Jamie: Yes.
Nancy: Then there are things you are not type A about. I mean, the nickname for your family is the Must bombs because-
Jamie: Running in with our pants on fire, sliding into home with dirt all over our faces. We're here. We made it. Suitcase is very packed, nice and neat. Everything's rolled, and it fits, and it's all in there, but, whew, what a ride.
Nancy: I remember when Doug said to me ... Even recently, we had an ... Just this week we had an argument because we were watching TV show. I go to the bathroom and get a drink and come back and sit down, and I'm starting back up the TV show. Then, he gets up to get a snack. I'm like, "What are you doing?" He said, "Oh, I just decided I wanted a snack."
Jamie: We already had halftime.
Nancy: I was like, "That is inefficient. We had the break." And he said, "We're watching the TV show. Why do we need to be efficient in watching a TV show?" Which is an excellent point, and that is why I married him.
Jamie: That is true. That is true.
Nancy: I would've snapped at him big time years ago. But now I can be like, "What are you doing? You're being inefficient."
Jamie: What's happening now?
Nancy: Efficiency is one of my rigidities. Even in making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, it has to be efficient in the number of dishes I use and the movement.
Jamie: Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes. Definitely efficient the number of dishes I use. And with efficiency, I am almost rabid about my efficiency with driving. I know the patterns of all the streetlights. If I'm driving north to get on the highway, I know that it's generally going to take longer to go one way when it's not rush hour, and it's going to take longer to go another way when it is rush hour, depending on times and stuff. But then, if there's no rush hour, I know two different ways to go depending on when I peek around the corner if one light is green, I know I need to go straight. Or if it's red, I know it's going to turn-
Nancy: Wow.
Jamie: ... before I get there, and so it's faster to go that way. Bananas. I was like that in law school, too. I have very specific recollections of how I would go to school because I knew if this light's green, I'm going to get the next red light, so I got to turn on the green light here to make sure I get the other green light.
Nancy: Wow.
Jamie: So, I do appreciate some efficiency.
Nancy: That's impressive. Because that's what I always laugh. Mom and I will constantly be like ... Or Dad. My dad was especially bad about this. If you got stuck in traffic and then you figured out a different way, and then you would get your destination and you'd be like, "We did it the right way." Then, Doug ruined it by saying, "How do you know? How do you know this was the right way because you just ended up at the destination the same as you would've a variety of other ways?" I was like, "No, we did it the right way because it was the way we ... It was the way we went."
Jamie: It was what we chose, so it was right.
Nancy: Other than efficiency, are there other rigidities and the order?
Jamie: My side of the bedroom is a bit of a fiasco, but I also have two dogs on my side of the bedroom just for a little credit. But, Dave is like, "What is happening over there?" I was like, "Well, I got to get the sheets folded and put them in the little under the bed zippy thing. And if they're not folded right, they're not going to fit, so I got to make sure I get them folded right to get them into the underbed Zippy thing. There's a recipe in that magazine that I know I want. I may have forgotten which recipe it was, but I know there was a good one in there. I got to rip that recipe out, take a picture of it so I have it in my phone."
Jamie: He's just like, "Just throw it away. Put it in the recycle bin. Move on. Move on with your life. Clear the clutter out of your life." That's where I get kind of bogged down. I know I need to do something with that, so I'm going to hold onto it.
Nancy: Because you have a system for what you need to do with it. It's just having the time to invoke the system.
Jamie: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
Nancy: Okay.
Jamie: Which I'll never have the time to invoke the system.
Nancy: Right, right, right.
Jamie: But, I try. I try.
Nancy: Yeah. No, I appreciate the endless hope.
Jamie: Hope springs eternal.
Nancy: I know anxiety is something that you struggle with. How would you say the monger plays into that or these rigidities even?
Jamie: At the beginning of my trip down anxiety lane was mainly end of law school, beginning of work. It was you have to take bar exam to practice, because I practiced on a state border, so I needed both bar exams. I remember after I took the bar exam in the first state where I practiced, after the bar exam, I was just like, "That was terrible. I know I flunked. I got to go through all of that again." I couldn't talk for a day.
Jamie: My dad had driven me from where we took the bar exam in mid-Missouri to where I grew up in Kansas city. I think I just stared out the window and just kind of cried and whimpered on the way home. My dad was like, "It's fine." I'm like, "It's not fine. I'm going to have to do it again."
Jamie: I still remember where we pulled up in the driveway and my dad just kind of waved at my mom, just gave her the cutthroat sign like, "Don't even engage. Just let her go whimper in her corner and lick her wounds, and maybe she'll come out tomorrow better." There's no way I passed that stupid test. I'm going to have to take it again, and I'm going to have to go through all that misery of studying for it again.
Jamie: I kind of got a hybrid answer. I got you pass the bar exam for the state of Missouri. Then, if you want to take an exam in another state, if you score high enough on the multiple choice part of the test, you can just carry that part over. But, I didn't get high enough on the multiple choice part to carry it over for the neighboring state, and so I had to do the whole thing again to take the neighboring state.
Jamie: So I did pass, but I didn't pass high. I kind of passed low because I didn't get to carry over my multiple choice score when I took Illinois. So then, it was, okay, I was smart enough to pass, but I have this nice job at a nice law firm. They're going to suss me out at some point and fire me because there's no way I should have this job. I got this job because my dad knew somebody, and I interviewed well, and my grades were pretty good, and I passed the bar, so I'm qualified. But, when's the other shoe going to drop and they're going to figure me out? So, that's like where the monger comes in like, "Hey, walking into work today. Didn't get fired yesterday. Woo! Coming back again. Let's see what happens today."
Jamie: So, that's that monger and that string of anxiety. And then now, since I'm not practicing, it's all with the kids. Kids get their homework done? Did they play the piano? Did they go to soccer practice? Are they doing well in school? Did I sign them up for the right things? If I don't sign them up for the right things, are they not going to improve with piano, improve with soccer, improve with basketball, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah?
Nancy: This is so common. Our mongers convince us we're a fraud and we're going to get found out. And her message is we need to keep hustling, pushing, and striving. Then, hopefully, one day we will be accepted. But in reality, she keeps changing the goalpost, just as she did with Jamie. Once she stopped practicing law, her monger came in to tell her the same message of never enough in regard to parenting. Your monger's message will just shift and change with you until you decide to get her under control and bring in your biggest fan.
Jamie: And that was where I kind of gotten out of the legal job stress and then kind of moved it to a different kind of holy crap. It's not me getting fired. It's my kids getting behind or not having the right opportunities or whatever. I mean, we live in lala land. They have plenty of opportunities.
Nancy: I want to step in here and talk about privilege, which Jamie alludes to. Jamie is right. She and I do live in lala land with the amount of privilege we have. And that is one of our monger's favorite way of shaming us and keeping us stuck. Our monger will tell us we need to be grateful, that we can't complain, that we're being whiny and privileged. And that message isn't helping anyone.
Nancy: Being privileged is a different issue. If you're privileged, then you need to own that and use it. Use it to bring awareness to less privileged voices, use it to give to organizations that help fight the disparity in our world. But, beating yourself up, shaming yourself for worrying about privileged things, well, that doesn't help those who are starving or suffering finding food, shelter, and employment. It just makes you feel paralyzed by shame. Privileged is something you need to own. It isn't something you need to shame yourself about.
Jamie: I think if I don't do one more thing or get them enrolled in a certain thing, then they're going to fall behind and not be as good as they could be. Or they could've been great at this, but I dropped the ball and didn't sign them up or didn't register them in time, and then it's my fault, but-
Nancy: Before we hit record, you were saying that the relationship with your monger ... You weren't quite as strong as your statement that you made to me at the wine bar now as you felt then.
Jamie: Yes.
Nancy: What has changed?
Jamie: It was one of those things where I was like, "Dude, if I don't have my monger, I'm not studying for the bar. I'm not trying to find a job." Or she is back there saying, "Get it done. Do it." And otherwise, it's a heck of a lot easier to sit down and watch Jeopardy. But, I guess it's ...
Jamie: One of my good friends has said, "We don't live in a show house. You can't expect yourself to live in a show house." Then, Dave will say, "But we can't live in a pigsty either." So, it's just trying to navigate that balance, which you're always walking that tightrope of, "We could vacuum. Let's get that done," versus ...
Jamie: Before, it was working with the kids on pitching because they were going to be pitching for a season in baseball. I watched YouTube videos, and then I was out in the driveway working with them. Yes, I could be inside folding clothes, vacuuming, doing whatever project I left on the northeast corner of the dining room table that I know I need to get to, or I can teach them how to throw a pitch. And I'd rather them know how to throw a pitch than get to whatever project that's been sitting on the dining room table forever. But, that's the battle is, but, yes, I do need to go inside and take care of some things. So, it's just that constant which way am I going to land on the tightrope.
Nancy: I think initially when I started this work, I wanted her to be gone. But, it's recognizing that she is always going to be there. And that's why I love the model of the biggest fan because the biggest fan is just the monger with kind words.
Jamie: Yes. And that is a much more content way to go about things is having a, "All right, you got to get it done. How about we turn on some music while you do it," or something or have the kids help.
Nancy: Yeah, because I think about ... Because I was going to say when you were talking about the baseball, that really is about what do I value, and I value my kids knowing how to play baseball. I value me spending time with them. I value this is making a memory more so than I value that the project on the northeast corner of the dining room table is done. And I can't do that all the time. I also am not going to be the mom who's going to be constantly out here playing with my kids to the detriment of-
Jamie: Right, right.
Nancy: The rules and rigidities will constantly fascinate me because I think they are just fascinating.
Jamie: Yes. We humans are an interesting breed.
Nancy: I love how Jamie talks about being human and brings her own sense of humor to the many rules are rigidities we have in dealing with our anxiety. We all tend to take ourselves a little too seriously. So anytime we can bring humor and some kindness to our lives, we are better off.
Nancy: I will say, even after all this time, my monger has not, poof, disappeared, but she has lost her hold on me. Bringing her and her shaming ways out into the open has made a huge difference. And living the principles I talk about in The Happier Approach allows me to keep her in check.